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Re: Power master Alternator [Re: cdwmotorsports] #2704198
10/05/19 10:59 PM
10/05/19 10:59 PM
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Badham Co.
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Y3 70 BEE Offline
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Originally Posted by cdwmotorsports
My only tip to you about the PowerMaster Alternator is this. If you think the belt is tight make it tighter, they don't charge well with a loose belt. I had a "not charging" issue with mine, I tightened the belt and it helped. I think it could stand to be tighter. PowerMaster assured me that you can't get it too tight and it won't kill the bearings.
Blind leading the blind.

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: stroked470] #2704215
10/06/19 03:03 AM
10/06/19 03:03 AM
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So Cal
Sinitro Offline
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A couple of points, there are (2) current specs for electric fans 1 is their startup rating and the other is the continuance rating...
Regarding belt tightness, the Powermaster alternator may like it really tight but the water pump doesn't...
If too tight for a longer period, get ready to replace the water pump..

Just my $0.02... wink

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Sinitro] #2704241
10/06/19 08:41 AM
10/06/19 08:41 AM
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The need for you to over tighten the belt may be you have the wrong width belt. Some replacement belts are not the same width as the original which can cause them to slip. Also I remember having one replacement brand belt stretch (can`t remember the brand name at this time) causing it to loosen.

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Y3 70 BEE] #2704274
10/06/19 10:14 AM
10/06/19 10:14 AM
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Martinsville, IN
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Originally Posted by Y3 70 BEE
Originally Posted by cdwmotorsports
My only tip to you about the PowerMaster Alternator is this. If you think the belt is tight make it tighter, they don't charge well with a loose belt. I had a "not charging" issue with mine, I tightened the belt and it helped. I think it could stand to be tighter. PowerMaster assured me that you can't get it too tight and it won't kill the bearings.
Blind leading the blind.


Care to explain?


eBay-cdwmotorsports
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: mopars4ever] #2704293
10/06/19 11:27 AM
10/06/19 11:27 AM
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West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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I never did overcome the Mopar low voltage at idle issue using any of the Mopar alternators. I even tried the smallest pulley I could find on the alternators.

I stumbled across the adapter bracket to mount a CS 144 on my car. It puts out 135 amps at a slow idle and over 200 amps just off idle. Yes, I did upgrade my wiring to accommodate the heavier amp load by using a lot of the Mad Electric theory. . I was not after the peak output, but wanted more amps at idle.

No one has ever noticed that it's a non=Mopar unit.

IMG_2602.JPG

1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: jbc426] #2704334
10/06/19 01:37 PM
10/06/19 01:37 PM
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Sniper Offline
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I have always been able to clear up the dim lights at idle issue on my mopars, event the 51 Plymouth when it was originally 6v generator equipped. mechanical regulator, electronic regulator, single field connection, dual field connection charging setup all of them no dim lights. Gotta clean all the connections and repair them if needed.

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: jbc426] #2704673
10/07/19 07:04 PM
10/07/19 07:04 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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Originally Posted by jbc426
I never did overcome the Mopar low voltage at idle issue using any of the Mopar alternators. I even tried the smallest pulley I could find on the alternators.

I stumbled across the adapter bracket to mount a CS 144 on my car. It puts out 135 amps at a slow idle and over 200 amps just off idle. Yes, I did upgrade my wiring to accommodate the heavier amp load by using a lot of the Mad Electric theory. . I was not after the peak output, but wanted more amps at idle.

No one has ever noticed that it's a non=Mopar unit.


Need to note your alt will never provide more than the car needs at iddle or revving up! You can get 800 amps alt if you want, but if your car ( along with the batt if discharged ) requires 55 amps while iddling because you have fans and whatever else, the alt will provide JUST 55 amps. The alt specs just says is ABLE to provide the output at certain speeds, but not that will PROVIDE it as a steady output.

The tests made on bench are being full fielded to provide its max output over the speed curve.

And more than voltage issue is really amperage issue, just that at certain amperage failure, then voltage begins to make somehow a proportional failure, but when you get the voltage variation, amperage began to fail way earlier.

Last edited by NachoRT74; 10/07/19 07:09 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: stroked470] #2705227
10/09/19 04:50 PM
10/09/19 04:50 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted by stroked470
I have a 65 Coronet that I recently bought and I am trying to sort out my last issue with it. I put on a set of dual electric fans and 26 inch radiator to keep it cool and settled that issue.

But created few new problems.
Quote
My first night out with it the voltage regulator went out. It had a stock type points regulator on it.

You ought to removee the cover and see what went wrong. Even if you don't fix it, it will be useful information.
Quote
Right now it has a square back parts store alternator on it. I switched to a stock looking electronic voltage regulator yesterday and it is charging again, KINDA. It is only showing around 12.6-12.8 at the battery at idle, if I rev it up it goes up to 14.3-14.5 but right back down at idle. This is with the fans off.

The voltage following rpm up to the set point was normal.
But at idle, with no additional equipment and battery in good condition, it should have been a little higher IMO.
Being a new to you car, its worth checking the idle speeds and the pulley diameters.
A 100 rpms difference at the crank can make 200 to 300 rpm difference at the alternator -and that can be huge!

Here's some output curves so you can see what I'm saying about rpm vs. power producing capability.
Capability is what Nacho just was describing. The actual amount of power flowing out depends on the demand.
So taking a stock '68 Coronet, demand by the coil and the rotor with engine running and battery charged, will be around 4 amps.

file_002.jpgtas_alt_12si_curve-Engine-rpm.jpg
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Mattax] #2705244
10/09/19 05:36 PM
10/09/19 05:36 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Quote
I have a new Power Master 17509 75 amp alternator to put on it but am I going to accomplish anything by doing this.

Hard to say. It depends on what they did to get the higher output. Sometimes to get the higher output, companies test at lower voltage. rolleyes Other ways include using a more windings - which in turn draw more current resulting lower output at low rpm. In theory, if they could fit things more precisely, then the rotor's field would be closer to the stator.


Quote
Power master instructions also show to ground the extra field terminal. Right now I just want to get out and drive before the season is up but 12-8 volts without the fans on is not going to cut it. I guess my questions are.
Do I need to install a 1 wire alternator with internal regulator.
No.
Quote
Do I need to use the one I have and ground the extra field wire.
If you wan to use the regulator on hand, then yes the second brush is grounded.
Your car came with a positive controlling regulator. This means the regulator controls how much current, if any flows into the rotor.
Starting in 1970, Chrysler started equiping all the cars with a negative controlling regulator. It uses the voltage reading on the positive feed wire to control the negative (ground) connection of the rotor.
The question is whether your regulator can handle the current draw of the either the squareback on the car, or more so, the Powermaster. Maybe Powermaster will tell you the current draw. Good luck on finding a person at a VR manufacturer to say what any particular one can handle.
Quote
Do I need to run a 8 gauge wire directly to the battery.
It depends on where the fans are connected in, and whether the fans will be run a lot on battery or not.
If you just neeed to get a race, or a couple weeks, you could connect the battery to the alternator output with an 8 ga. But to protect the system, put a 16 ga fusible link between the battery and that wire.

My suggestions longer term are:
A. Go back to mechanical fan, with shroud, etc. Then factory wiring scheme works pretty well.
B. Keeping the electric fans, go to a longer more efficient alternator like the Denso and alter the factory strategy. I think I would use an auxillery fuse/breaker box and relays, with one of those relays allowing a direct connection to the battery and alternator. Also I wouldn't use an AGM battery. If its getting drained from running the fans with engine off, then it will draw a bunch of amps when recharging - and an alternator that can supply a lot of amps at low rpm will cook the battery.

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Mattax] #2705253
10/09/19 06:04 PM
10/09/19 06:04 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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This is a typical late 60s stock type system showing the current flow after starting and then after battery is charged.

Charging-diagram6x-charging2plus.pngBasic-Power-diagram6x-plus-running.png
Current flow from alternator

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: skicker] #2705284
10/09/19 08:12 PM
10/09/19 08:12 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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what Sniper said, there are 2 sizes of alt pulleys (dia) that I have seen, you want the smaller one. I'm assuming you have an electronic version of the "box" reg


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Re: Power master Alternator [Re: RapidRobert] #2705292
10/09/19 08:33 PM
10/09/19 08:33 PM
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Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Mattax] #2705463
10/10/19 10:25 AM
10/10/19 10:25 AM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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This diagrams seems to be a bit familiar LOL

[Linked Image]

Last edited by NachoRT74; 10/10/19 10:25 AM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2705497
10/10/19 11:54 AM
10/10/19 11:54 AM
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West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
Originally Posted by jbc426
I never did overcome the Mopar low voltage at idle issue using any of the Mopar alternators. I even tried the smallest pulley I could find on the alternators.

I stumbled across the adapter bracket to mount a CS 144 on my car. It puts out 135 amps at a slow idle and over 200 amps just off idle. Yes, I did upgrade my wiring to accommodate the heavier amp load by using a lot of the Mad Electric theory. . I was not after the peak output, but wanted more amps at idle.

No one has ever noticed that it's a non=Mopar unit.


Need to note your alt will never provide more than the car needs at iddle or revving up! You can get 800 amps alt if you want, but if your car ( along with the batt if discharged ) requires 55 amps while iddling because you have fans and whatever else, the alt will provide JUST 55 amps. The alt specs just says is ABLE to provide the output at certain speeds, but not that will PROVIDE it as a steady output.

The tests made on bench are being full fielded to provide its max output over the speed curve.

And more than voltage issue is really amperage issue, just that at certain amperage failure, then voltage begins to make somehow a proportional failure, but when you get the voltage variation, amperage began to fail way earlier.



Yes, Nacho. Good point.

I saw that as a given, as its an inherent design feature of these system. I used to have a a way to big electric race style fuel pump, twin Spal fans that sucked nearly 50 amps on start up along with A/C, power windows, and brighter headlights. It took care of all that.

I've since switched over to the Mopar clutch fan & shroud, and put a more street friendly 2 speed fuel pump on the car. It works much better, and as you pointed out, the system automatically adjusts to the load.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2705520
10/10/19 12:55 PM
10/10/19 12:55 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
This diagrams seems to be a bit familiar LOL

YES.
laugh2

I actually typed a caption crediting where each of those charts came from but the caption did not appear when I posted. shruggy

The first is yours, I forget now is that a late version squareback or the next generation of Chrysler alternators?
The other is a common GM self energizing alternator and comes from a Delco- Remy catalog. The engine rpm is based on an AMC-Jeep application.

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2705771
10/11/19 03:46 AM
10/11/19 03:46 AM
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Balt. Md
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
Originally Posted by 383man
Many racers put the larger alt pulley on for more hp but it kills the charging at idle. Ron


large pulleys on racing cars keep bearings safer at high rpms


No racers started doing that years ago to pick up a few horses by slowing the alt down and its not as hard on the rotor. Sure the bearings will spin slower since the alt is slowed down but I have not seen anyone tear bearings out of their alt with stock size pulleys when racing. I run and always have run stock size alt pulleys on my street and race cars and have never had any bearing trouble. Ron

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: mopars4ever] #2705773
10/11/19 04:01 AM
10/11/19 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mopars4ever
The need for you to over tighten the belt may be you have the wrong width belt. Some replacement belts are not the same width as the original which can cause them to slip. Also I remember having one replacement brand belt stretch (can`t remember the brand name at this time) causing it to loosen.



I had a car one time that would not charge good when the eng revved up. The more rpm the eng did the less it charged. It seemed like it would be a slipping belt but it was not making any noise or squealing at all. But I noticed if I started the car and then brought the rpm's up to about 3000 rpm for about 30 seconds I could see it charging less. Then I shut the car off and felt the alt pulley and it was so hot it was almost red hot. Which was from the belt slipping of course. So I found that to be a good test when I feel the belt may be slipping and its not making and noise. Just look for a very hot alt pulley that will burn your finger so just touch the pulley real fast when doing that test ! Put a new belt on it and problem fixed. I have seen this a few times in the 40 years I was turning wrenches where the belt slips but does not make any noise. Course the key is that it charges less when the rpm's go up and it will fool you for a minute since the belt usually squeals when its slipping. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 10/11/19 04:03 AM.
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Mattax] #2705811
10/11/19 09:31 AM
10/11/19 09:31 AM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mattax
Originally Posted by NachoRT74
This diagrams seems to be a bit familiar LOL

YES.
laugh2

I actually typed a caption crediting where each of those charts came from but the caption did not appear when I posted. shruggy

The first is yours, I forget now is that a late version squareback or the next generation of Chrysler alternators?
The other is a common GM self energizing alternator and comes from a Delco- Remy catalog. The engine rpm is based on an AMC-Jeep application.


I'm not claimming any credit LOL... just was fun to notice that... in any case its Beck-Arnley credit since was taken from the alt I bought from them ( via Rockauto ) coming with the chart.

BTW its a late version squareback 78 amps

Last edited by NachoRT74; 10/11/19 09:33 AM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power master Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2705906
10/11/19 01:29 PM
10/11/19 01:29 PM
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White House,TN
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stroked470 Offline OP
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according to Power Master I needed to speed up the alternator. I measured my pulleys and my crank pulley was a 5.2 diameter and alternator is 2.6. which gives me a 2-1 ratio. Power Master said it needs to be as close to 3-1 as possible. I ordered the biggest pulley I could find that's 6.4 diameter. we will see what that does

Re: Power master Alternator [Re: Sniper] #2705924
10/11/19 02:19 PM
10/11/19 02:19 PM
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Sniper Offline
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It's like deja vu all over again.

Originally Posted by Sniper
You either need a smaller alternator pulley, larger crank pulley or turn your idle speed up.


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