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Batteries'm currently running a single battery #2695815
09/09/19 03:00 PM
09/09/19 03:00 PM
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Red Deer, Alberta
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Greenwood Offline OP
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I'm currently running a single battery in my Dart. The load is pretty basic- MSD, fuel pump, water pump, fan, line-loc. I run a GM one-wire alternator, and still run short of power if I go rounds. Because it's 1/8 mile, cool downs are quick, so I'm not running the fan/water pump for more than a few minutes between rounds, yet I still ended up with a dead battery after 4 runs. I've tried bigger batteries, and RV/marine batteries, and nothing seems dramatically better than anything else. I've double checked the system to make sure the alternator is charging, and it is. It's not putting out big voltage, but it should be enough that the battery isn't draining out. I'm going to add a second battery. Do I connect them positive to positive and negative to negative? (Dumb question, but I've seen some battery banks connected positive-negative.)

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2695818
09/09/19 03:12 PM
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Last edited by mopars4ever; 09/09/19 03:15 PM.
Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: mopars4ever] #2695831
09/09/19 03:44 PM
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Tulsa OK
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You might check out your charging system real well. I run a single Yellow top that is now 9 years old. I run 2 fans, Electric Water Pump, 2 fuel pumps, and EFI. I cool it down between rounds and I have made as many as 12 passes at an event with no trouble.

I run a GM CS-130 alternator wired as a 3 wire deal, sense wire, charge wire, and charge light.


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2695854
09/09/19 04:55 PM
09/09/19 04:55 PM
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I dont have an answer but I would keep digging till you pinpoint what part ain't doing its job. On a side note the old Jacobs ign bible had a schematic for 2 batteries that gave 24V at WOT. If I was allowed 2 batteries I would try it


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: RapidRobert] #2695869
09/09/19 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RapidRobert
I dont have an answer but I would keep digging till you pinpoint what part ain't doing its job. On a side note the old Jacobs ign bible had a schematic for 2 batteries that gave 24V at WOT. If I was allowed 2 batteries I would try it


Running OPs system in series to produce 24v would be a sure way to fry everything. In this case more isn't better, and also why they say to hit the kill switch when charging so you don't fry things. I've seen people kill fans and water pumps during cool down with 16v chargers hooked up.

If your goal is to double your amp and reserve capacity, you'd hook them in parallel. Sounds like your battery is on its way out, you have a bad connection somewhere, or your alternator isn't enough amps.

Last edited by A39Coronet; 09/09/19 05:14 PM.

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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2695878
09/09/19 05:30 PM
09/09/19 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood
I'm currently running a single battery in my Dart. The load is pretty basic- MSD, fuel pump, water pump, fan, line-loc. I run a GM one-wire alternator, and still run short of power if I go rounds. Because it's 1/8 mile, cool downs are quick, so I'm not running the fan/water pump for more than a few minutes between rounds, yet I still ended up with a dead battery after 4 runs. I've tried bigger batteries, and RV/marine batteries, and nothing seems dramatically better than anything else. I've double checked the system to make sure the alternator is charging, and it is. It's not putting out big voltage, but it should be enough that the battery isn't draining out. I'm going to add a second battery. Do I connect them positive to positive and negative to negative? (Dumb question, but I've seen some battery banks connected positive-negative.)


I have a 69 Dart. Similar type stuff running on it you have. One wire powermaster alt, interstate battery, etc. i had constant problems with it turning over slow, unreliability in later rounds.
Over last winter i had a local guy who wires car go through mine. All new wiring, put fan, water pump and fuel pump on relays. Bigger wire from Alternator, new wire from starter, you name it, upgraded everything. Added a light in the trunk for adding fuel at night.
Couple lights inside car to read ET slips at night..... yada, yada.
Long story short, just put the car away for the season due to surgery i had. Had put battery on trickle charger for a couple days before i got car out last spring.
Went lots of rounds, ran fan and water pump in the pits and lanes to enter waterbox at my desired temp every time........ and never had a battery charger anywhere near the car all race season long.
Proved to me having good and correct wire and grounds are critical.
Probably best investment i have ever made


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: B3422W5] #2695883
09/09/19 05:42 PM
09/09/19 05:42 PM
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Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Originally Posted by B3422W5
Originally Posted by Greenwood
I'm currently running a single battery in my Dart. The load is pretty basic- MSD, fuel pump, water pump, fan, line-loc. I run a GM one-wire alternator, and still run short of power if I go rounds. Because it's 1/8 mile, cool downs are quick, so I'm not running the fan/water pump for more than a few minutes between rounds, yet I still ended up with a dead battery after 4 runs. I've tried bigger batteries, and RV/marine batteries, and nothing seems dramatically better than anything else. I've double checked the system to make sure the alternator is charging, and it is. It's not putting out big voltage, but it should be enough that the battery isn't draining out. I'm going to add a second battery. Do I connect them positive to positive and negative to negative? (Dumb question, but I've seen some battery banks connected positive-negative.)


I have a 69 Dart. Similar type stuff running on it you have. One wire powermaster alt, interstate battery, etc. i had constant problems with it turning over slow, unreliability in later rounds.
Over last winter i had a local guy who wires car go through mine. All new wiring, put fan, water pump and fuel pump on relays. Bigger wire from Alternator, new wire from starter, you name it, upgraded everything. Added a light in the trunk for adding fuel at night.
Couple lights inside car to read ET slips at night..... yada, yada.
Long story short, just put the car away for the season due to surgery i had. Had put battery on trickle charger for a couple days before i got car out last spring.
Went lots of rounds, ran fan and water pump in the pits and lanes to enter waterbox at my desired temp every time........ and never had a battery charger anywhere near the car all race season long.
Proved to me having good and correct wire and grounds are critical.
Probably best investment i have ever made


The only thing I run off of factory wiring is lights and wipers, probably the best thing I have ever done to the car.

I do stick a battery charger on it after I have been to the track. I drive the car to the track and I like to make sure I leave the house at %100. Plus I manage an Interstate Distributorship so I always make sure my battery stuff is on point.


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87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Bad340fish] #2695894
09/09/19 06:14 PM
09/09/19 06:14 PM
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When the battery is low, you need to use an accurate meter check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine running at high idle. If it is under 14 volts, you have a problem with the alternator or the wiring that adding a 2nd battery wont solve.


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2695969
09/09/19 10:15 PM
09/09/19 10:15 PM
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Mooresburg, Tn
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I would agree with others here, that your wiring needs looking at closely, especially your grounds. If your using the frame/chassis/body for your grounds, its not enough. I run one six year old yellow top optima and NO alt, some times running two classes at the same time, charging between rounds(sometimes only a few min).
Back to grounds. You should have a ground AT LEAST as large as your hot cable, going from the battery to the starter, and run your other grounds from that point.
Also, your battery can have all the volts in the world, but if it doesn't have the amp and reserve, it won't do what you need.

Brian

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: '72CudaRacer] #2696100
09/10/19 11:29 AM
09/10/19 11:29 AM
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moparx Offline
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i believe your problem[s] boil down to three items
the battery on it's way out
the alternator is too small, or not working correctly
the wiring has issues [connections, too small gauge wire for sub systems, bad, or not enough grounds]

a total inspection is needed for these things.
just my opinion from fixing wiring issues over the years.
beer

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: moparx] #2696172
09/10/19 02:59 PM
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Red Deer, Alberta
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Greenwood Offline OP
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Maybe I have been looking in the wrong direction. One of the things that has perplexed me over the years is how the battery will drain down (every battery that's been in the car). If I simply turn off the power at the bumper switch, the battery will drain down in about 4-5 days. The only way to keep power in the battery is to disconnect the battery ground wire when I park it. The wiring is nicely done on this heap, but I'm obviously missing something, or have done something incorrectly. I can understand the charging issue being related to either bad/insufficient grounds, or insufficient wire size from the alternator back to battery, but is the battery drain down related to grounding? The main battery ground goes from the battery to the trunk floor pan, with the paint under the washer sanded away, and the alternator ground goes to the OE alternator bolt hole in the front of the cylinder head. Should I re-route the alternator ground to the frame rail? The car was wired with a Painless package, which made the whole process very easy, if that helps. Thanks for the replies, BTW.

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2696177
09/10/19 03:14 PM
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How is your alternator wired? I bet something is going on there, if it is wired to the battery side of the switch it could have a problem and be the cause of the drain. It is possible for an alternator to be bad and drain the battery when the key is off, but still function properly when the car is running. That would be my guess.

I like to run a continuous duty solenoid up front that breaks alternator power when the disconnect switch is shut off. It does complicate the wiring some but it insures zero hot power when the disconnect is off.

What kind of battery do you have and what kind of charger? When you get a battery drained down bigtime like you mentioned it takes alot of charge time to get them up to 100% properly. Most automatic chargers won't get one there without a few extra steps.

Last edited by Bad340fish; 09/10/19 03:15 PM.

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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Bad340fish] #2696195
09/10/19 03:46 PM
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Red Deer, Alberta
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Greenwood Offline OP
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Bad340- Good question. The alternator is wired through the main switch so that the switch de-energizes the system. Here's a random thought that just hit me. The bumper is powder coated, and the main switch is mounted to the bumper, which should serve as a ground, if I understand my electrical theory correctly. But, with the powder coating, maybe the switch isn't grounded properly. I've used RV/Marine batteries, but they've bee no more successful than using regular automotive ones. I've got the biggest battery that will fit in my battery box.

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2696204
09/10/19 04:05 PM
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The disconnect shouldn't require a ground, it just breaks the circuit for the positive cable.

Look to see which side of the switch your alternator wire goes to. I am betting its the battery side.


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Bad340fish] #2696482
09/11/19 10:55 AM
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a 12v battery is 100% charged at 12.73 volts
90% at 12.62
80% at 12.50
70% at 12.37

with the car running, check the output of the alternator, then check what is happening at the battery posts to see if you have a voltage loss.
beer

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: moparx] #2697080
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Originally Posted by moparx
a 12v battery is 100% charged at 12.73 volts
90% at 12.62
80% at 12.50
70% at 12.37

with the car running, check the output of the alternator, then check what is happening at the battery posts to see if you have a voltage loss.
beer

I agree. Also I run a #4 welding cable from alternator to battery. I have a Denso 60 amp. The system works very well with zero loss of voltage at the battery as long as I check it after warm up. Be sure your alternator is pullied to run max rpm at the highest rpm your motor see's. That really affects charging rate at idle and running around the pits.

Last edited by gregsdart; 09/13/19 05:55 AM.

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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: A39Coronet] #2697144
09/13/19 11:11 AM
09/13/19 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by A39Coronet
Originally Posted by RapidRobert
I dont have an answer but I would keep digging till you pinpoint what part ain't doing its job. On a side note the old Jacobs ign bible had a schematic for 2 batteries that gave 24V at WOT. If I was allowed 2 batteries I would try it


Running OPs system in series to produce 24v would be a sure way to fry everything. .
Oh I agree, that's why I added it as a side note as something I wanted to try in the future. It'd be for a circle track app where you'd be off the throttle going into the corners (whre things would cool off) & Jacobs in their words stated that parts might be likely to fail. It could be an edge for me.


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Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: RapidRobert] #2699713
09/22/19 01:22 AM
09/22/19 01:22 AM
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Red Deer, Alberta
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Greenwood Offline OP
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So, I finally got a chance to fiddle with my heap. The first thing I did was check the voltage. It was at 11.83V, having been only given a short recharge after we go back from the track. At that voltage, it fires in less than one turn of the crank. smile. At a 900-1000 rpm idle, with only the fuel pump running, voltage was 12.79. Now, grounds had been mentioned, so I decided to start there. The alternator and the MSD were grounded to the engine, at the 3/8 bolt hole at the front of the head. I decided to move the grounds down to the bolts that hold the motor plate to the frame. Now, my voltage is 13.32 at the more normal 750 rpm idle. The voltage now drops to about 12.7 when I turn on the fan, and 12.3 when I add the water pump. I'm going to give the battery a full charge and re-test tomorrow, but it seems that the core issue was the ground, although the charging situation is admittedly soft. When I test my alternator output, do I test the voltage or the amperage, and what setting do I use on my multimeter?

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2699808
09/22/19 11:45 AM
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moparx Offline
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GM one wire alternators are famous for not producing much volts and amperage until around 1200RPM.
to start, check the alternator tag for total amperage. [i think it should have a tag stating that info]
then, check the voltage coming from the alternator, using the multimeter on the DC setting. red lead to the output stud, black lead to the case. it should read 13.8-14.2 [or very close to that].
next, check the voltage at the battery and compare that to right off the alternator.
please report back with what you come up with.
beer

Re: Batteries'm currently running a single battery [Re: Greenwood] #2699837
09/22/19 12:16 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Many people and racers don't realized that the current out of all batteries flows form the negative post to the positive post, the negative post is the hot one hence the need for very good "grounds" work scope
You can test your system for current drain by disconnecting the negative cable and use your multimeter as a jumper wire from the battery post to the cable in the Volt reading position scope Some techs use their eyes to see if the battery will make a small or large spark when reconnection either cable back onto the battery also work scope


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