A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
#2695425
09/08/19 11:42 AM
09/08/19 11:42 AM
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Posts: 8,027 Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
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Another learning curve for sure. Tried a few things to find what it likes and dislikes. I first added more pump gas to the tank diluting out the 2 gallons on 110 I added last weekend at MidMichiganMotorPlex, installed new champion race plugs c63cx(7 heat range) and removed my electric fans and replace with a 17" aluminum flex fan. Off the trailer was the best pass with a 10.666@127.30 vs the best pass last weekend of 10.401@129.75. 2nd pass I had the air bell removed just to see if it would again hurt it with nothing on top on the carb and it did. 10.669@126.19, 1mph loss. 3rd pass I switched the HS air bleed from 28 to a 30 to see if it would help on the bottom and it did not, in fact it leaned it out way too much on the top with 13.9afr thru traps and ran 10.715@126.05. 4th and last pass, put the 28's back in, put the air bell back on and removed the 1" wilsons tapered spacer. It ran a 10.711@126.47 with much cooler air. It should of picked up more than that IMO, so the looks like the spacer stays on. I should have put a bigger jet in the rear, maybe 2 sizes, because it was running 13+afr's every pass. I think the flex fan cost about a 10th or 2 and 2 or 3mph. Timing was left at 36* on every pass. I ran 1 brand new plug 1 time down the track. I will cut it open and post a pic. Only way this cars going any quicker is with some hard parts changing, like 440-1 heads and a nice Roller. Not impressed with these Victors. Here's a pass down the track. https://youtu.be/mKG7lJhLuac
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/08/19 11:44 AM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695438
09/08/19 12:33 PM
09/08/19 12:33 PM
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Bad340fish
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Good Video, I think it could use more converter. You are still legging out 1st gear for 2000 more RPM after the flash. I am not a big block guy but that seems like a lot to me.
Why did you switch the fans? Your runs you made awhile back I think you said it ran 129MPH or so but 60d in the high 1.4s. I would look on the short end of the track for improvement.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340 87 "Chrysler" Conquest
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695450
09/08/19 01:06 PM
09/08/19 01:06 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
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Yes and I know what works best for it as is. It is a street car, so fairly happy with it anyway. Here's a pic on a single pass plug. No black specs,cool.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695469
09/08/19 02:14 PM
09/08/19 02:14 PM
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Clanton
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Yeah, no black specs. That run was with Dom's original tune. If you watch the AFR's in the vid it was running 13.9 thru the traps. A tad lean with the 30 HSB. I couldn't see the a/f dial clear and was looking at the color if it changed. I can read it going full screan.TY!
Last edited by Clanton; 09/08/19 02:28 PM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695530
09/08/19 06:39 PM
09/08/19 06:39 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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deaks
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What motor, spec, weight ?
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200# best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft best 60ft 1.36
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: deaks]
#2695548
09/08/19 07:51 PM
09/08/19 07:51 PM
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mopar dave
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67 Barracuda 3380# race ready 511 LD 11.25:1 MW victor heads cnc'd by hughes 330cc port flows 356@.600 .700 uses HS 1.6/1.5 rockers SFT cam spec'd by Dwayne 270/276@50-.644/.615-110 Indy 400-3 with 1" 4 hole tapered 2" mad dog headers 3.5 coll 727 w/reverse manual 8" vert 5100 stall/flash by Lenny@Ultimate Dana 4.10 28" M/T ET R radials I have read on other mopar sites guys using these victors disappointed as I unless they have 13:1 or more compression. Not many make over 700hp with the victor head.
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/08/19 07:58 PM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695591
09/08/19 09:48 PM
09/08/19 09:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
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madscientist
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67 Barracuda 3380# race ready 511 LD 11.25:1 MW victor heads cnc'd by hughes 330cc port flows 356@.600 .700 uses HS 1.6/1.5 rockers SFT cam spec'd by Dwayne 270/276@50-.644/.615-110 Indy 400-3 with 1" 4 hole tapered 2" mad dog headers 3.5 coll 727 w/reverse manual 8" vert 5100 stall/flash by Lenny@Ultimate Dana 4.10 28" M/T ET R radials I have read on other mopar sites guys using these victors disappointed as I unless they have 13:1 or more compression. Not many make over 700hp with the victor head. IMO, that 63 Champion is a bit cold for that CR on pump gas. You can get that in a 65. That's only 1 range hotter. Without seeing the shell it's hard to say how much hotter you should go, but I'm going to say that 63 is too cold.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695639
09/09/19 12:34 AM
09/09/19 12:34 AM
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madscientist
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I'm not sure, but I was under the understanding the c63cx was the hottest in that style. Yeah, I had to look it up. The C63CX is the hottest in that style. If you can find them, you can get a C63 which is one range hotter, but it's a fine wire plug with the standard ground wire. The C65YC is the same heat range as the C63 and is one range hotter than that C63CX you are using. So the C63 and the C65YC are the same heat range, with different tip styles. BTW, the C65YC is an extended tip, which IMO is better for pump gas stuff. I used to remember this stuff off the top of my head. Tonight I had to get the book out! Sucks getting old.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: moparx]
#2695731
09/09/19 10:56 AM
09/09/19 10:56 AM
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Posts: 13,319 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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Dave, don't take this as a dig at you or your car, but am I the only one who feels like this combo should be faster than it is?
For comparison, my 3700 lb cuda w/ a stock stroke 440, unported Indy SRs, old Team G intake w/ a 1050 dominator, mid 260s at fifty solid roller, and 14:1 compression went 10.40 at 129.1 mph. 5k stall 727 w/ 4.10s and 28" tires. The only thing my combo had better than yours is higher compression.
If there isn't something up w/ the heads, it might need a lot looser converter to get it moving? Have you had it on a dyno?
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2695737
09/09/19 11:14 AM
09/09/19 11:14 AM
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B3422W5
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Kinda what i thought. Figured on relatively easy 9 sec time slips
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: B3422W5]
#2695743
09/09/19 11:37 AM
09/09/19 11:37 AM
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fast68plymouth
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I replayed the vid a few times.
Def doesn’t seem like it has enough stall, and sounded like it was legged out a bit too long in 2nd gear.
If that’s the best shift point, iiwii, but it “sounded” like you waited too long.
If you’re running it with the ex closed up, I’d def try uncorking it.
330cc is a fair amount of volume for 356cfm, although I realize some of that is the runner is length. That’s not far from what the TF270’s or a set of EZ295’s flow, with noticeably smaller runners.
You have to need that extra volume for it to pay off........ and an 11.25:1 511 just may not need it.
As for the victors and power....... I was pretty happy with Brads std port victors on his 452. Nearly 700hp with a (relatively) easy on parts roller cam.
I’m sure with a little more aggressive cam, an HVH super sucker/4150-4500 adapter and a decent 4500 carb it would have crested 700hp.
The ported MW versions seem to end up quite a bit bigger, but don’t flow much more.
What are the 60’ times?
Did you go over the scales?
As with every new combo, you have to start somewhere.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695824
09/09/19 03:32 PM
09/09/19 03:32 PM
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fast68plymouth
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As with any street/strip car that’s trying balance the two modes of operation, it’s just a pile of compromises.
In order to improve one aspect of the operation, you have to give something from the other side.
Aside from maybe more cubes...... not usually any down sides to that other than fuel consumption.
I don’t think a different flat tappet cam would provide “much” performance improvement....... with no other changes to the combo.
It would probably be better if it was faster, and slightly smaller, and a little tighter........ and that would possibly run worse on the street with mufflers on it......... and would need pretty stout springs, which will impact reliability in street use. But...... if that were more than about .10 I’d be surprised.
There’s always some trade off.
This is why I like to dyno the motor before installation.
If you knew it made enough power to run a 10.0 you wouldn’t mess with it. You’d concentrate on the “car”.
So far at least, it looks like you need to find 50-60hp worth of mph to get into the 10.0 zone.
My guess is, if the motor were on the dyno, the hp numbers would look better than what the ET indicates the power is.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: RustyM]
#2695896
09/09/19 06:14 PM
09/09/19 06:14 PM
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mopar dave
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More great info. Yes I ran 34* last weekend at another track in mine shaft air and it ran it's best pass at 10.401@130. Doms carbs are awesome.
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/10/19 07:37 AM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2695968
09/09/19 10:14 PM
09/09/19 10:14 PM
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RRandP92
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Agree with others,the package as a whole should have plenty left in it. Running an A body at 3250lbs 520ci 11.6:1 pump gas with otb trickflow 270s solid roller with similar specs on cam from dewayne. Old fenderwell headers and 3.5 in exhaust and mufflers dumped behind driver. Ultimate 8in converter set up very tight for nitrous, 727. 3.70 rear gear on a 325/50 radial. Best pass so far with zero track tuning is 10.003 at 130.50mph on a 97 degree day at Charlotte dragway. Leaving off footbrake at 2800 and shifting at 6200.
Last edited by RRandP92; 09/09/19 10:16 PM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: SILVER67]
#2696008
09/10/19 12:27 AM
09/10/19 12:27 AM
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mopar dave
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So, your the guy that used to own these mw victors? Looks like they are fully capable of doing what I want, so you think its just in the vert? Every combo I have see making good power (700+) with the victor MW also had about 13:1or more compression. Maybe they just lazy on pump gas motors.
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/10/19 12:33 AM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696044
09/10/19 08:20 AM
09/10/19 08:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,319 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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One thing I'd try next time out is leaving just off idle. Sometimes a tighter converter will 60 foot quicker being smacked WOT from a low rpm, like 1500 or less. I know mine in the past have. One thing that surprises me is that it doesn't want more RPM w/ those heads and fairly stout cam.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696097
09/10/19 11:22 AM
09/10/19 11:22 AM
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6pakdakota
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Don't recall seeing that. i'll watch the vid to see where you were at. How did it run? It ran 11.25 @ 116. It’s not running right though, my new 9.5” converter is way too loose up top. It was slipping 14.5% through the traps.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696363
09/10/19 11:35 PM
09/10/19 11:35 PM
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mopar dave
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I called Dynamic today. They want me to run it at the track again and try short shifting to see what it wants for proper shift point. That's not gonna happen, no time. I'm really not sure where it runs out of steam at, but on the street it seems like 6000rpm. At the track it seemed like I was waiting a long time for the shift light to come on with it set at 6700rpm. I'll call Lenny tomorrow and get his opinion on it. Dynamic wants $385 to opened it up plus parts.
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/10/19 11:36 PM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696553
09/11/19 01:40 PM
09/11/19 01:40 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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I'd get the converter loosened up and try again. Save the intake swap for later IMO. I'd bet as soon as you mention it's a street car, most companies get conservative and build the converter on the tight side. I'd leave the street part out and just tell em your combo. I've run several types of converters in mine on the street and never had any problems...sprag, spragless, mech. diode, real loose, tight, etc.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696606
09/11/19 04:13 PM
09/11/19 04:13 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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My converter guy has always spec'd a 9" converter for my combos.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696631
09/11/19 05:35 PM
09/11/19 05:35 PM
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Cab_Burge
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Try contacting FTI 1-866-726-0273 I had them build a tranny and converter for one of my local customers, he is very happy with both parts
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2696804
09/12/19 08:14 AM
09/12/19 08:14 AM
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an8sec70cuda
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Who's vert are you using? Atlantic Coast Converters in Conway, SC
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2697183
09/13/19 12:23 PM
09/13/19 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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BradH
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I don't want to (re)read through everything you've posted, but have a few questions:
1. What about your current converter do you think needs to be changed? If it flashes to 5K+ and only has 6% slippage, it sounds better than my Dynamic 9.5" with a 4500-flash and 8% slippage. And the fact that two well-respected converter companies suggested you not mess w/ the converter ought to carry some weight, IMO.
2. Have you considered changing to a clutch-type fan setup since the flex-flan has obviously cost you some significant HP? It won't free up as much as an all-electric fan setup, but it'll get some of what you lost back. The "old reliable" MP viscous fan kit works well.
3. I don't know what else you've done for testing carb jetting, but the AFRs in the high 13s you mentioned on mostly 93E10 fuel sound really lean to me. Have you tried bigger jets to see if the car slows down with an AFR closer to say 13.0? Oh, any chance your fuel system can't supply enough fuel on the top end?
4. What are you running for valve springs, retainers, pushrods, etc., and how do you have the springs set up given the lift you have? I'm wondering if you may be running into valve train instability at higher RPM...
5. Are you having any spinning issues off the line? Is the car launching hard & straight?
6. Has any of your tuning involved changing accel pump squirter sizes and/or pump cams, in addition to changing launch RPMs? Are you fighting any hesitation, etc.?
My $.02 (and sh!t-can it if you want) is that you haven't spent enough time figuring out the current combination of hard parts to know why the car isn't running where "everyone" seems to expect it should.
Part of why I mention this is because your earlier time slips from the new BB vs your old stroker SB showed the BB combination was better everywhere but the last 660'. It had a better 60, it was quicker & faster in the 1/8th, but it gave it all back on the last half of the track. That makes no sense to me, unless there's an issue that's choking it on the big end.
And now I'll go back under my rock and work on my own junk.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: BradH]
#2697313
09/13/19 08:48 PM
09/13/19 08:48 PM
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mopar dave
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Thanks for replying Brad. When you talk to a vert shop and mention street, its the end for getting a good 60footing vert. They get stuck on that street thing. Lenny didn't recommend loosening, but said if I wanted he would loosen it a bit. It is going back to him. You need a 8" vert for what your doing. ATI says N/A engines need 8" convertors. Big power, big convertor. Power adder cars need 9, 9.5 or even 10" for big turbo engines making huge power. I don't think I have the room for the clutch fan. I have another idea for the electric fan as im looking for higher output fans than the spals 990cfm rating and I have an idea how to incorporate a T stat in the housing. First time out I was running good AFR's thru the traps with 12.3, 12.5, 12.7 and 13.2 on fastest pass when the temp dropped. I tried HS air bleed change which leaned things too far, .028 to a .030. Associate valve springs. I'm told by Todd at Compititionwedgeengines they are good quality springs and they produce some of the other big name springs out there. They are set up at 1.930 with 145# on seat and 410# open pressures. I spoke with Dwayne the other day, he did suggest pulling a couple and have them tested to be sure. No spinning. Car hooks great , goes straight without any hesitation and makes you think your breaking all the records til you get to the ticket booth. I just richened the rear jets 2 sizes since on straight 93 and no 110 in the mix it runs a tad leaner. I just bought 2 cans of unleaded 98 octane oxygenated to try. Not sure what that's about either with the loss at the end of the track. When I foot brake I have to hold the brake real hard to keep the car from moving. The vert feels tighter than when it was behind the SB, so its getting a loosening. I may try a different intake and I told Dwayne I wouldn't switch his cam out, I may down the road if nothing else works. This will be my winter project and try again in the spring.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2697397
09/14/19 09:22 AM
09/14/19 09:22 AM
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Bad340fish
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its probably best you don't tell the converter people about the street part. I believe a good track converter is better on the street than a street converter is on the track. Run a cooler and drive smart and you won't have any issues.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340 87 "Chrysler" Conquest
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: BradH]
#2697495
09/14/19 02:34 PM
09/14/19 02:34 PM
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fast68plymouth
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683.7hp@6800 with std port heads and an ootb manifold........ and a less than optimal small venturi carb that tends to richen up slightly at the top end. A more optimized, slightly bigger carb....... along with some oxygenated fuel....... probably coulda squeaked a 7xx out of it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2697828
09/15/19 06:35 PM
09/15/19 06:35 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Expense doesn't really matter In that case....... a 572 Hemi should easily solve the problem.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698010
09/16/19 10:48 AM
09/16/19 10:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,695 central il.
second 70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,695
central il.
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Expense to a point. I'm not a rich guy by any stretch. Hey, wait a minute, A hemi would be real nice at the track and the car shows. You think you have a headache now just wait until you get a hemi. Lol
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698201
09/16/19 08:00 PM
09/16/19 08:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/16/19 08:04 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2698229
09/16/19 09:35 PM
09/16/19 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,027 Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,027
Mt Morris Michigan
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I have the up date pipemax 4.5. I'm am able to calculate csa port velocity. Its very low according to this program and suggest a cam in the 261/268*-.650/.600" with 42* of over lap. Sounds aweful small, but who knows. Gonna call hughes tomorrow and get there opinion.
Last edited by mopar dave; 09/16/19 09:36 PM.
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Re: A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT
[Re: J_BODY]
#2698646
09/18/19 06:44 AM
09/18/19 06:44 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210 robin hood country
deaks
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
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A true 700 hp should put a modestly light A body into mid, high nines, my old 440 was around 600 and ran 10.1 at 132 with RPM's. Mick
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200# best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft best 60ft 1.36
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