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Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: Paul Jacobs] #2691102
08/25/19 05:17 AM
08/25/19 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Jacobs
Originally Posted by mopars4ever
76 Yes, i do. NOS upper and lower arms. NOS idler and pitman arms. NOS torsion bar end bushing. Just got a NOS upper ball joint boot 2269127 that was missing from a member here. So it`s not pointless to me but maybe to most. Honestly, I really don`t care if someone feels its trivial or not. Some people feel a need to express their way of thinking all the time around here. I feel it`s trivia when someone needs to express what they feel is trivial or not. Why do they waste their time? Dunno??? I`m getting some good info even with all the ones trying to ruin someones post. Some are proud of their work and some are proud of how their mouth works.


Don’t ever let someone’s opinion stop you from getting the details right- I’m doing another OE restoration right now (#7) and am fanatical about the way it’s going- but in the end it’s my car and satisfies me and that’s all that matters...


bow up up Paul.

Some seem to forget that this particular Moparts forum was actually a spin off of the Moparts A12 forum with a very ANAL group of members that discussed things that were considered trivial at the time like wing nuts, painted or unpainted Lynch Road fender tags versus bent, one screw painted other assembly, the correct oval air cleaner screen holes, paint and inspection markings, correct hose markings and date codes, you name it, nothing was off limits. This forum spent probably fifty plus pages discussing the correct paint formula for organisol black and that thread still comes up more than a decade later. Bending cotter pins would have been a PERFECT subject for a thread back in those days for the Anal Dozen (A12 wink ) and yes it still matters to some of us as to how it was or "might" have been done. If things like this don't matter to you or anyone then just head off to the hardware store or your local auto parts store and just buy replacement fasteners and parts to restore your Mopar and stop buying reproduction parts from vendors. I think the next time I need a radiator hose, one of those corrugated hoses will do just fine and I'll be sure to use those convenient screw type hose clamps for that day-2 look. It matters to some and should matter most in this Moparts Restoration and A12 Forum how the original production cotter pins were bent..........if it doesn't then, well then this thread or forum is not for you I guess.

MikeR

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: A12] #2691103
08/25/19 05:40 AM
08/25/19 05:40 AM
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Maybe these couple of assembly line photos will help to at least determine if (some) of the assembly line cotter pins were neatly bent using engineering standards (which some pre-assembled components may have been done off of the assembly line?) or if some of the cotter pins were just slipped in and tapped with a hammer or tool? I'm thinking the worker that used the pneumatic air gun (in the photo) to install the ball joints etc. was the same worker that may have inserted the cotter pin otherwise if the castle nut didn't align with the ball joint hole the next worker would have to have an equally powerful air gun or long lever wrench to align it. Don't know how many times we all have had to do that eh? So now the worker with the air gun tightens the castle nut, slips in the cotter pin and taps it with the socket end of the air gun and moves on......that's my bs assumption and you know what they say about assumptions wink

Edit: Looking at the assembly line photos there seems to me to be only two cotter pins that need to be installed at this point; the two upper "A" arm ball joints, most or all of the other cotter pins should have already been installed off of the assembly line where the entire drive line was assembled??? To answer the original question you would have to reference those two cotter pins IMO. Then compare the other cotter pin locations and see if they follow a different pattern. All cotter pin bending were therefore not done the same way in my opinion now again only my opinion.

(BTW that's one heck of a pneumatic tool being used to tighten what looks like the K-frame bolts, no wonder they are always a pia to get out laugh2 )


MikeR

Assembly line 68 Charger 00001a.jpgrobin1.jpg
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: A12] #2691113
08/25/19 07:22 AM
08/25/19 07:22 AM
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Thanks for the info, help and advice. It is good know there is still many good guys out there willing to help.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: mopars4ever] #2691129
08/25/19 08:52 AM
08/25/19 08:52 AM
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With any component on a car project, some want to do it the best they can and others do it the best they can.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: mopars4ever] #2691229
08/25/19 01:46 PM
08/25/19 01:46 PM
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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You're welcome, some of us forget that to most of us this is a hobby. Some of us build models and just glue the parts together and some of us get into the most detailed creations that yes are considered insane but we stand back and say wow with respect to the detailer.

Back to bending cotter pins: Here are some photos of a 5600 mile survivor A12 bee's suspension, steering and K-frame with what looks like Ziebart rust prevention. Some of the cotter pins look to have been just tap bent and some folded. Just some examples to look at.

There are also a few things that I never noticed before and that is the lower radiator hose sure looks like one of the workers in the pit put that on from underneath with the direction of the clamp. scope

Also I always wondered why the K-frame had two holes that were not at the lowest point of the K-frame to what I would think would be for draining water or snow, etc., and also why they were stamped and had a lip on the inside that would keep some of it from draining?? Then I see the assembly line K-frame fixture and wonder if those two holes are for that fixture? hmmmmmm. Another thought came to mind, that it also seemed like a perfect time to stamp a date code onto the front of the K-frame because those assembly line workers know exactly what day it is and what shift they are working and that date and shift code would tell just exactly which team of workers married the ENTIRE driveline to the body. that date code covered a lot of assembly if it was used for that and it just happens to be one of the places where they placed an assembly line broadcast sheet.

IMG_4154.jpgIMG_4160.jpgIMG_4158.jpgIMG_4155 copy.jpg
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: A12] #2691232
08/25/19 01:51 PM
08/25/19 01:51 PM
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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2 The drag link passenger's side seems to have been done with both cotter pin tabs bent around the castle nut in opposite directions?

IMG_4110.jpgIMG_4112.jpgIMG_4115.jpgIMG_4161.jpg
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: A12] #2691275
08/25/19 04:37 PM
08/25/19 04:37 PM
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New York
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A12, it looks like you had a pretty good engine setup. You got all D's
Oh buy the way those cotter pins look great.
That's how I do mine, just bend them over a little and hit them with a small hammer.
And look no paint on oil pan bottom like most got or did not get.
Thanks Bob

Last edited by VCODE; 08/25/19 04:38 PM.

Mom & Dad let me buy a brand new 70 Challenger R/T 440 Six-Pack Super Trac Pack when I was 17 (Robert what is a 440 Six-Pack)
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: A12] #2691280
08/25/19 04:48 PM
08/25/19 04:48 PM
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Hamtramck, PA
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Quote
Another thought came to mind, that it also seemed like a perfect time to stamp a date code onto the front of the K-frame because those assembly line workers know exactly what day it is and what shift they are working and that date and shift code would tell just exactly which team of workers married the ENTIRE driveline to the body.


The K-frames were stamped on the day they were completed like every other date coded part / assembly if that helps at all?

Like any part or assembly, completion was required before going into a car.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: BloFish] #2691441
08/26/19 03:45 AM
08/26/19 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BloFish
My vote for thread of the year!

No really. But my "take" on this is "Where/When does it all end?"
Or does it really?
It's very nice.interesting to have/acquire/view this archival info.
Those old factory pics are fascinating.

But if the "Hobby" comes to any final type of consensus of "proper" cotter pin bending;
are all owners of "restored" suppose to redo theirs? Then what's next?
Establishing "Degrees-Of-Slopiness" to mimic factory correctness.

Hey: More power to those whom endeavor to engage in the "correctness arena".
Is there a "Light" at the end of the tunnel?
Or is it the ever expanding universe: where there IS no end!

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: PhillyRag] #2691443
08/26/19 05:18 AM
08/26/19 05:18 AM
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Hopefully it will never end. I think for the most part threads like this will never really determine how it was done exactly for ALL of the vehicles produced, like in this case for example. It may establish an example how some or a lot were done but this is only one example of a B-body at one assembly plant for one model year that made more than a hundred thousand examples, At best what can be established is how most likely it was NOT done. We are pretty sure how they were not done by these examples: 1, we know they were not done without a cotter pin ;), 2 We know most were not done bent or folded neatly or engineering style, 3, We know they were not safety wired like aircraft nuts and bolts or had Loctite on them (I know silly, and obvious). There's probably more examples of how they were not done and that's probably the best information that comes out of threads like this and why they hopefully go on forever. When I did my '68 Road Runner's front suspension years ago I neatly and somewhat engineering style bent and folded all (10?) of the cotter pins, next time I'll do them differently but I'm not going to lose sleep over the RR's cotter pins. But I'll know now or in the future if someone is trying to pass off an "untouched" survivor and asking big bucks for it and the cotter pins are nicely done then tsk wink

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: PhillyRag] #2691449
08/26/19 06:15 AM
08/26/19 06:15 AM
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Paul Jacobs Offline
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Originally Posted by PhillyRag
Originally Posted by BloFish
My vote for thread of the year!

No really. But my "take" on this is "Where/When does it all end?"
Or does it really?
It's very nice.interesting to have/acquire/view this archival info.
Those old factory pics are fascinating.

But if the "Hobby" comes to any final type of consensus of "proper" cotter pin bending;
are all owners of "restored" suppose to redo theirs? Then what's next?
Establishing "Degrees-Of-Slopiness" to mimic factory correctness.

Hey: More power to those whom endeavor to engage in the "correctness arena".
Is there a "Light" at the end of the tunnel?
Or is it the ever expanding universe: where there IS no end!


Good points!

I’ve been doing this since I was 14 and it’s been both a hobby and a job for me as I ran a resto shop for 15 years. I have thousands of original photos of original cars I’ve documented over the years but I never stop learning so no-there IS no end- as you said.
I don’t run my shop full time like I used to, but am doing an OE restoration on a unique car that belongs to my dad. For this car I’m striving to get all the details right as a challenge to myself and to continue a tradition of excellence for those that appreciate it. There will be factory flaws, all dated parts, visible primer lines, factory brown grease in the suspension joints, tons of nos assembly line parts-even nos tires I just acquired-because that’s the way it’s supposed to be. In the end it will make it more valuable knowing what’s been invested.

On the other hand I’m building a pro touring charger for myself that breaks all the rules so that’s my relief from the exhaustion of an OE car.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: Paul Jacobs] #2691477
08/26/19 09:46 AM
08/26/19 09:46 AM
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I love that you are doing your Dad's car O.E. Paul. Tell him I said Hey! No it never ends and yes you never quit learning. It has been and always will be fun to me to get into these details this deep. Thanks again Paul for all the correct knowledge you have shared with me and others!

All the comments from the peanut gallery that do not help the question at hand is the main reason I no longer get into these threads anymore. I am sure that is also why the serious A12 guys left this forum and started their own. It is really sad that people in this hobby want to put down others who love these cars but choose a different way to enjoy them.

Whether you want to just drive them, or restore them, or race them, or trailer them, we are all on the same team. The save these Mopar's team.
Thanks to all in this hobby who care about these cars and want everyone to enjoy them however they see fit.

And by the way, this forum is called Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum. Why wouldn't we be discussing how they bent cotter pins at the factory!!!!!!


69 Road Runner vert
69 GTX hard top
70 Road Runner 4 speed
70 Hemi Cuda vert
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: MOPARMIKE69] #2691747
08/26/19 10:34 PM
08/26/19 10:34 PM
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KY USA
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Well said MOPARMIKE69 thumbs my thoughts exactly.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: MOPARMIKE69] #2691794
08/27/19 01:46 AM
08/27/19 01:46 AM
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Quote
Why wouldn't we be discussing how they bent cotter pins at the factory!!!!!!
[quote][/quote]

Certainly should: for those whom feel it's worthwhile.
For a laugh: did One worker do Both sides of the car, or One on each side?
Could LS/RS be bend differently then.
Guess gotta stay tuned for the Next Chapter.
When & If it ever gets published.
Still enjoy those Old Pics
Keep them coming.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: MOPARMIKE69] #2691914
08/27/19 12:26 PM
08/27/19 12:26 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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Originally Posted by MOPARMIKE69


And by the way, this forum is called Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum. Why wouldn't we be discussing how they bent cotter pins at the factory!!!!!!


So, the bottom line is "let's see how sloppily we can throw a car together"? A good hangover and problems at home add to the authenticity.


I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.
Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: MOPARMIKE69] #2691927
08/27/19 01:03 PM
08/27/19 01:03 PM
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north of coder
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Originally Posted by MOPARMIKE69
I love that you are doing your Dad's car O.E. Paul. Tell him I said Hey! No it never ends and yes you never quit learning. It has been and always will be fun to me to get into these details this deep. Thanks again Paul for all the correct knowledge you have shared with me and others!

All the comments from the peanut gallery that do not help the question at hand is the main reason I no longer get into these threads anymore. I am sure that is also why the serious A12 guys left this forum and started their own. It is really sad that people in this hobby want to put down others who love these cars but choose a different way to enjoy them.

Whether you want to just drive them, or restore them, or race them, or trailer them, we are all on the same team. The save these Mopar's team.
Thanks to all in this hobby who care about these cars and want everyone to enjoy them however they see fit.

And by the way, this forum is called Moparts Restoration & A12 Forum. Why wouldn't we be discussing how they bent cotter pins at the factory!!!!!!


hopefully, my comment comparing the corvette restorers vs the mopar restorers, was not taken the wrong way, but it very possibly was.
i LOVE to learn, and threads such as this are GREATLY appreciated ! i am GLAD our community is so anal about the way the factory did things, i'm saying we are BETTER at restorations than the corvette crowd.
if i ruffled some feathers, please accept my apology. i am truly sorry. i did not mean my comment to come across as it may have.
beer

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: moparx] #2692010
08/27/19 05:07 PM
08/27/19 05:07 PM
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I didn’t take it that way brother it’s all good!!!

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: John_Kunkel] #2692020
08/27/19 05:46 PM
08/27/19 05:46 PM
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Quote
So, the bottom line is "let's see how sloppily we can throw a car together"? A good hangover and problems at home add to the authenticity.


How you do your car is up to you.

Some people here want to put their car back to 'as built' as closely as possible.

That is why this forum exists. up

These cars were built fast, thousands a day at times. Hangovers & any problems at home - no time for those on the lines, they had to deal with it or stay home.

A great in plant video at https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=b6L0ykX9lPU

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: Alaskan_TA] #2692023
08/27/19 06:11 PM
08/27/19 06:11 PM
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Lee Co. Fla.
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That plant video was really interesting.Thanks for the vid.

Re: bending cotter pins on tie rod ends and ball joints [Re: 5carguy] #2692112
08/27/19 10:55 PM
08/27/19 10:55 PM
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KY USA
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Thank you Barry, I really enjoyed that plant video. Well worth watching, it made my night LOL. Makes me realize we have been smart in mass manufacturing for a long time and I know it goes back much further into the teens.

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