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Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! #2686096
08/09/19 05:41 PM
08/09/19 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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Well yesterday I installed a new Borgeson box with the Bergman coupler kit into my 71 Satellite Sebring. Here’s a description of how it went with pictures. I did this with a friend of mine who knows this stuff extremely well. Without his help I’d still be working on it. We got it done in less than a day.

The car has a 340 with shorty headers running a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fast ratio pitman and idler arms. Because I like the faster ratio and my exhaust was custom bent to route around the pitman and idler, I chose to keep the fast ratio setup. I also have the large sector pitman.

I bought the Borgeson box and kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Peter was very helpful over the phone. I picked Bergman because of their coupler that doesn’t require you to cut the steering column.
https://bergmanautocraft.com/

First we removed the battery, tray, and steering pump to make room. Then we loosened the steering column at the firewall and under the dash. After resting the column and steering wheel on the front seat, we hammered the roll pin out of the original coupler so that we could pull the column out of the old box.

Next was to loosen the bolts on the Firm Feel box, and separate the box from the pitman arm. Separating the box from the pitman was not the typical nightmare, mainly because I had just installed that Firm Feel box only a few years ago.

Space was a little tight but from eyeballing it we thought we might luck out and be able to slide the old box out between the header and fender wall. We were a little too optimistic. The header blocked removal of the old box both from above and from the front. Worst case we’d have to remove the header. Best case we could jack up the engine for the extra ½ inch we needed. We lifted the motor on the driver’s side and were able to slide the box out through the front.

Getting the new box in was easy. It’s smaller, lighter, and fits the frame bolts perfectly.

Back to the steering column, it was time to remove the old coupler and install the new one. Removing the old one was pretty straightforward, but the new one required some extra attention in getting the pieces internal to the coupler arranged properly. We put them together, greased them up, and used a brass hammer to tap the black coupler housing onto the end of the column. My column is pretty beat up, to say the least, so we were extra careful in not making it any worse.

Something that might be obvious to others but was not obvious to me was that the internals of the coupler act as a U-joint. Once we had it on the column it rotated fairly smoothly. I could see how the whole thing would work together.

According to the installation instructions the next step is to center the spline on the box and install the steering column. Nothing on the new coupler or Borgeson box showed a master spline, so we had to play it by ear. We decided to attach the column to the box and use the steering wheel to locate the center.

We attached the column to the box and mounted the column back to the underside of the dash. Attaching the Bergman coupler to the Borgeson box was a little different than the stock pieces. You don’t use the roll pin (as far as we could tell). Instead there is a little stud that screws through the end of the coupler and lines up with a divot in the Borgeson spline. The Bergman kit came with a new roll pin though, so if we missed something I’ll probably discover it after my car careens wildly out of control through a fence.

Centering the box was a little less precise than I would have liked. With the pitman arm unattached, we spun the steering wheel back and forth to locate the center. The box turned about 3 2/3 turns, lock to lock. Half of that is 1 and 5/6 turns. So I turned the wheel all the way to the left and then back 1 5/6 turns. The steering wheel wasn’t straight but at this point we didn’t care about that and were more concerned with having the tires pointed straight when the box was centered. We attached the pitman to the box.

We never did get it right. With the fast ratio pitman attached, the Borgeson internal stops weren’t used anymore because the tires would touch the frame rails long before we got to the stops. On our first try attaching the pitman, the steering (lock to lock) was 1 full turn to the right, 1 1/3 turns to the left. We detached the pitman and tried it on the next spline, and we got the opposite result – 1 full turn to the left, and 1 1/3 turn to the right. If we could somehow get a 1/6 turn adjustment using the splines it would have been perfect, but we couldn’t. I’m hoping to get that 1/6th using the tie rods.

There’s been some talk about the angle of the Borgeson box with the steering column. It’s not too bad and so far I haven’t felt anything.

Then we reattached the pump (the return line on the box is the one closer to the firewall), filled it, and reinstalled the battery tray and battery.

Here’s my experience driving it for about 30 miles:

The Good:
The ratio and steering feel. Wow! I was a little worried about using the fast ratio arms with the Borgeson box. But, no. This is the BEST steering experience I’ve had with this car, and I’ve had this car since 1987! For under $1,000 this is the best steering you will get out of a classic Mopar. The final ratio is somewhere around 10.5:1.

The Bad:
I have the dreaded Borgeson “hiss”, which is a slight hissing sound you hear with this box. Many other people have reported it. I only hear it when the steering wheel is dead centered. If I turn the wheel just an inch, it goes away. I’ve already spoken with Bergman and they are suggesting a new pump.

But even with the hiss – the steering is so good I’ll just turn up the radio and forget about it.

The Ugly:
My original 1971 Saginaw power steering pump is giving up the ghost. The Borgeson box, as per Bergman, requires ~1,000 lbs of pressure at ~2.4 gpm. A cooler may be recommended as well. My pump was fine when the car was moving but struggling when the car was at a dead stop. The fluid felt hot as well.


I hope this helps others who are considering the Borgeson box.

Jim

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686097
08/09/19 05:43 PM
08/09/19 05:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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Here are two before pics:

1 - Box and pump.jpg1 - Side view.jpg
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686098
08/09/19 05:48 PM
08/09/19 05:48 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
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It was tight removing the old box. Here's a view before we lifted the engine.

IMG_20190808_104319212.jpg
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686099
08/09/19 05:49 PM
08/09/19 05:49 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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Here's the new box mounted in the car.

New box in.jpg
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686100
08/09/19 05:51 PM
08/09/19 05:51 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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And with the column attached. The second pic shows the coupler angle.

Installed.jpgIMG_20190808_123959938.jpg
Last edited by JF_Moparts; 08/09/19 05:51 PM.
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686101
08/09/19 05:53 PM
08/09/19 05:53 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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And with everything installed:

IMG_20190808_175137353.jpg
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686151
08/09/19 09:54 PM
08/09/19 09:54 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Thank you for the report. I see that you have the TRW pump. I wonder how it compares to a Saginaw pump?
I thought I recall reading that the Saginaw pumps used in V8 cars made over 1150 psi while the slant six versions were around 850 ?
I want to do this swap as well but if/when I do, I'm planning on going back to the standard ratio idler and Pitman arms. I too have a Firm Feel Stage 3 with the Fast Ratio arms.

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: Kern Dog] #2686562
08/11/19 05:03 PM
08/11/19 05:03 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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Regarding the ratio, the Borgeson w/ fast ratio arms does not feel too fast, at all. In fact, it reminds me of a new MB E-series coupe in steering responsiveness. Total turns lock to lock are about 2.3 before the tires (for me, 255/45-17) hit the frame.

I drove the car a little last night and really have to get that pump replaced. I'm considering the pump that Bergman sells, along with a cooler. I'm not sure if there's anything particularly unique in the pump from Bergman.

And the hiss is still annoying. smile

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686566
08/11/19 05:15 PM
08/11/19 05:15 PM
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Mequon, WI
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gzig5 Offline
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That hiss is disappointing. I was very interested in it until I saw the reports of the noise. I can't see spending that amount and having to live with that noise. I thought Bergman said that they fixed that issue?

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: gzig5] #2686590
08/11/19 07:02 PM
08/11/19 07:02 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
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Did they? If so, did they post that anywhere?

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686632
08/11/19 09:12 PM
08/11/19 09:12 PM
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Mequon, WI
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Originally Posted by JF_Moparts
Did they? If so, did they post that anywhere?


I'd have to look, but I'm 95% sure I saw a thread somewhere where that whine was discussed and there was supposed to have been a fix that was defined by the housing being cast or welded?? It's not related to anything Bergman is providing as far as I know. I'm sure he could address it for you.

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: gzig5] #2686710
08/12/19 02:34 AM
08/12/19 02:34 AM
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Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline OP
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I have the newer cast box.

I spoke to a few people today about it and it was suggested to make sure the input line from the pump was at least 18" long, and to try to reduce harmonic vibrations by attaching something, like a wrap of some kind, to the line with clamps. I'm going to give that a try.

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2686787
08/12/19 10:06 AM
08/12/19 10:06 AM
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north of coder
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what is the/this hiss caused by ?
beer

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: moparx] #2686883
08/12/19 01:21 PM
08/12/19 01:21 PM
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JF_Moparts Offline OP
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Originally Posted by moparx
what is the/this hiss caused by ?
beer


I'm not 100% sure. I'm thinking it's caused by the fluid coursing through the lines or box, causing slight vibrations that are being passed up through the Bergman coupler and into the column, which is then heard inside the car. There's a video of a 68 Barracuda making the same noise. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkKw4eJDSwg

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2687003
08/12/19 07:12 PM
08/12/19 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JF_Moparts
Originally Posted by moparx
what is the/this hiss caused by ?
beer


I'm not 100% sure. I'm thinking it's caused by the fluid coursing through the lines or box, causing slight vibrations that are being passed up through the Bergman coupler and into the column, which is then heard inside the car. There's a video of a 68 Barracuda making the same noise. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkKw4eJDSwg



Wow, that's quite worst than I thought. I'm not sure what all would cause that but my Borgeson box with a all-metal u-joint to the column doesn't make that noise.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2687189
08/13/19 10:52 AM
08/13/19 10:52 AM
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north of coder
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you would think that noise may be caused if the wheel was held against the stop, but it would get irritating listening to that just going down the road.
thanks for the link JF.
beer

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: moparx] #2687239
08/13/19 01:03 PM
08/13/19 01:03 PM
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NW Chicago suburban area
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JF -- T/Anks very much for your postings on this subject! By chance did you weigh the boxes to compare?


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2687273
08/13/19 02:05 PM
08/13/19 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopar Mitch
JF -- T/Anks very much for your postings on this subject! By chance did you weigh the boxes to compare?


I didn't, but according to Borgeson the new box weighs 22 lbs and old one is 33 lbs. Putting in the new box was a LOT easier on the back.

Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: JF_Moparts] #2688961
08/18/19 04:30 AM
08/18/19 04:30 AM
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Granite Bay CA
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Originally Posted by JF_Moparts
[quote=moparx] There's a video of a 68 Barracuda making the same noise. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkKw4eJDSwg



Can't quite tell but it seems to me that the car is really quiet aside from the hiss. I'd guess that a car with more rumble may hide that noise a bit.
I was briefly concerned but my car has more exhaust sound evident from inside so this may not even matter to me. Thanks!

Last edited by Frankenduster; 08/18/19 04:31 AM.
Re: Installing the Borgeson/Bergman kit. With pics! [Re: Kern Dog] #2689005
08/18/19 09:51 AM
08/18/19 09:51 AM
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The Dark Side
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When I worked as a wrench for Dodge, we sometimes would get different type of feedback noises off pressure hoses, whether it was A/C or P/S. The fix from Ma Chrysler was to put a 2-piece counter weight on the hose to change the dynamics. Maybe you can try a weight like the ones they have for kitchen faucet hoses that pull the hose back into place? Bolt it around the P/S pressure hose. Worth a try to unbolt from the sink to try it out, eh?

.

hose weight.jpg
Last edited by Fasbird; 08/18/19 09:52 AM.
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