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Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: sasquatch] #2686690
08/12/19 12:03 AM
08/12/19 12:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
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Deep DEEP SOUTH
LAD 524 Offline
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Deep DEEP SOUTH
Originally Posted by sasquatch
and that list is getting shorter by the minute. It seems like I here about another shop auction every week or so. Just like a lot of racers a lot of shop owners are hanging up their spurs. I have the pleasure of dealing with some really top notch shops and the vast majority will privately tell you that they are done or thinking hard about being done. A LOT of them. One even made the comment that in 10 years you will not be able to give shop machines away. It also speaks to our society, no body fixes or builds things. Just toss it and get another.
Todd


This ^^^^^^^

The times, the are a.....nah, they've already changed.

And they gonna change even more.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: LAD 524] #2686699
08/12/19 01:06 AM
08/12/19 01:06 AM
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Oregon
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It is super expensive to custom build an engine these days. Shops have a lot of expenses that they have to cover so someone has to pay for it. The shop I work with has cut way back on "oddball" jobs since they usually don't pay very well. He doesn't do Flathead Fords anymore or old tractor engines or weird stuff like 50's Cadillac engines. The weird stuff requires a ton of time and most of the customers aren't willing to pay for it. A lot of guys who have weird engines are guys who have owned them for a long time and they still think that a full engine rebuild should be around $1500. So the guys who have the weird stuff that takes a lot of extra time are the same guys who don't want to pay much.

Crate engines wiped out a bunch of business around here. The local tracks switched over to crate engine racing which is probably good for everyone but it does wipe out a lot of business for the shops. There are still a lot of bracket racers who want custom engines built and there are a fair number of guys with muscle cars who aren't afraid of spending $10,000 to $15,000 for a ground up stroker build. But most of the rebuild business has gone away over the past 20 years. The engines in new cars last a long time now so there is no need for rebuilds. I have a Toyota 4Runner with 220,000 miles on it and it doesn't use any oil. Still has the original exhaust system on it. When I was a kid my dad rebuilt the engines in our cars at 100,000 miles. They just didn't last much past that back then.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: AndyF] #2686725
08/12/19 08:13 AM
08/12/19 08:13 AM
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Washington
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Originally Posted by AndyF
It is super expensive to custom build an engine these days. Shops have a lot of expenses that they have to cover so someone has to pay for it. The shop I work with has cut way back on "oddball" jobs since they usually don't pay very well. He doesn't do Flathead Fords anymore or old tractor engines or weird stuff like 50's Cadillac engines. The weird stuff requires a ton of time and most of the customers aren't willing to pay for it. A lot of guys who have weird engines are guys who have owned them for a long time and they still think that a full engine rebuild should be around $1500. So the guys who have the weird stuff that takes a lot of extra time are the same guys who don't want to pay much.

Crate engines wiped out a bunch of business around here. The local tracks switched over to crate engine racing which is probably good for everyone but it does wipe out a lot of business for the shops. There are still a lot of bracket racers who want custom engines built and there are a fair number of guys with muscle cars who aren't afraid of spending $10,000 to $15,000 for a ground up stroker build. But most of the rebuild business has gone away over the past 20 years. The engines in new cars last a long time now so there is no need for rebuilds. I have a Toyota 4Runner with 220,000 miles on it and it doesn't use any oil. Still has the original exhaust system on it. When I was a kid my dad rebuilt the engines in our cars at 100,000 miles. They just didn't last much past that back then.



To add one thing to andys very well written post, very few people today will rebuild an engine from a car or truck. Walk through a wrecking yard. They are full of late model stuff that looks like with a wash and wax you could drive them. 8, maybe 10 years old, almost perfect in every way and there they are. Today, when a car is 10 years old the owners look at the value of the vehicle and say why spend 7-8k to R&R and rebuild the engine in this thing when the whole vehicle is worth less than that? So they junk it and move on. No reason to put cash in something that doesn't meet the value.

Our society has lost what value is. Most stuff today is just junk. That's why it has so little value. Decades of manipulation of the money, artificially low interest rates, credit to anyone with a job without regard to ability to pay has devalued everything. The hidden tax of inflation has so devalued the dollar that it's worth about .02 of what it was just over 100 years ago.

Unless something big changes quickly, the engine building business will be essentially dead. The machines and tooling will be worthless here, but third world toilets will buy them up, as they will be rebuilding the junk they have. Or tuning out low grade reman crap for poverty wages for use in the US market.

It's just the sad fact. The automobile, once the proud banner of American pride, freedom and affluence has become a Marxist utilitarian tool at best. Kids today would rather have a phone than a cool car. Hell, most of my 17 year olds friends don't drive yet. Some don't think they ever will! Or want to. They plan on going to a college where they can walk or ride mass transit where ever they go, and for something else will use an uber. If they want to travel, they will rent a car. When questioned on who in the hell will drive it, most never think that far. You can't rent a car if you can't drive. I think they suspect they will always have a friend or two who can drive and will be willing to do the rental and drive. Driving is a chore. An unnesessecary expense.

Most major cities today are building areas that are wholly self contained. You can live, work, shop, go to the theatre or movies all within walking distance. No one will own a car. And retards are flocking to these places. I only live a few hours from the Pacific Ocean. Most of my sons friends have never seen the pacific and it's literally in their back yard. Never seen a pro football or baseball game and it's a bit over 2 hours for that. And they really don't care. They talk about comicon and goofy crap like that. When I point out you have to travel they say they'll fly in and then rent a car.

It's a losing proposition. Idiotic regulations, manipulation of the money and credit, raising people who are just indifferent at best to driving, untold BILLIONS spent on worthless mass transit, refusal to update roads and highways, traffic flow patterns that in the late 1960'and early 1970's would have had people kicking ass are tolerated today as just the way it is.

There not getting around it. Just one of the many reasons three score and ten years are appointed to man to live. Most of my dads generation are dead. The rest are too old to drive. Could they see the way it is today, IMO, they'd be stunned and saddened. Not many countries around the world have a road system to make driving what it is/was here. So they just don't know. It's a lost part of Americana that is slowly being eaten away.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2687227
08/13/19 12:47 PM
08/13/19 12:47 PM
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Holly/MI
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I use 2 machinists. One local that does mostly commercial/construction repair & automotive. He'll tell you straight out it's not a race shop. I pay his price & don't complain. Usually done in 1-2 weeks. Last week, dropped off a 2 cyl set of sleeves, pistons and upper block, something he previously said over a year ago, he never does, after his approval to take it on, he called to pick it up in less than a week.
Pressed out sleeves, bored, honed, pressed sleeves, machined surface of deck & head......$290. Seemed a tad high, but I just paid the bill and trusted his word & work.
2nd machinist is farther away, does more extensive work & takes his time. I got worried & dropped in on him. My stuff was on the bench & partially done (In progress). Which was good enough for me considering the beauty of the work & I don't want a rushjob. When he's done with that project, I got a block for him next.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #2687255
08/13/19 01:38 PM
08/13/19 01:38 PM
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Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Originally Posted by Dean_Kuzluzski
I use 2 machinists. One local that does mostly commercial/construction repair & automotive. He'll tell you straight out it's not a race shop. I pay his price & don't complain. Usually done in 1-2 weeks. Last week, dropped off a 2 cyl set of sleeves, pistons and upper block, something he previously said over a year ago, he never does, after his approval to take it on, he called to pick it up in less than a week.
Pressed out sleeves, bored, honed, pressed sleeves, machined surface of deck & head......$290. Seemed a tad high, but I just paid the bill and trusted his word & work.
2nd machinist is farther away, does more extensive work & takes his time. I got worried & dropped in on him. My stuff was on the bench & partially done (In progress). Which was good enough for me considering the beauty of the work & I don't want a rushjob. When he's done with that project, I got a block for him next.


I'd think all that would ruin at least 3 hours. $290 seems pretty reasonable to me.

Kevin

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: sasquatch] #2687408
08/13/19 07:48 PM
08/13/19 07:48 PM
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Posts: 10,665
North Dakota
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North Dakota
Originally Posted by sasquatch
One even made the comment that in 10 years you will not be able to give shop machines away. Todd


Well, I haven't seen any evidence of that even starting. Obsolete valve machines like an IDL that hasn't been in production for decades is still $3k+. But I don't disagree with your point. Around here we had 7 machine shops within a 75 mile radius. Now there are two.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 6PakBee] #2687992
08/15/19 11:33 AM
08/15/19 11:33 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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The “bread and butter” work that kept the typical automotive machine shop going...... is almost non-existent anymore.
Rebuilding heads and the machine work associated with engine rebuilding is now a tiny fraction of what it was 25 years ago.
Automobile engines often outlast the cars they reside in, in many parts of the country these days.
And the motors are now quite a bit more complicated than they used to be, and are more expensive to rebuild ....... to where the cost of doing so is well beyond what the vehicle is worth in many cases.
It’s usually way cheaper to find a used motor and just swap it out.

Add in that many of these late model engines require machining processes that are beyond the capabilities of a lot of 30-40 year old machines that many of those old school shops had, and the cost for new machinery is beyond the reach of those shops, especially when you consider the return on investment with the shrinking market for the services.

There were just more shops than the current market can bear.





68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
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Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2688054
08/15/19 02:23 PM
08/15/19 02:23 PM
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
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In my hometown we had 4 machine shops. Now we have one.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: rickseeman] #2688074
08/15/19 03:23 PM
08/15/19 03:23 PM
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Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Online content
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Being in the automotive business, and knowing/ dealing with a ton of auto repair shops..... i can state more and more people are getting that big laundry list of things the car they have needs( when they cant ignore the issues any more) fixed. Rather than getting rid of the car and replacing it.
Had a shop owner tell me recently those 2000-3000 dollar estimates he gives, more people than ever are saying...” go ahead and do it” that didnt used to OK it. They know what they have, and that admittedly large large bill will keep them motoring along for a couple more years.... or longer. Typically way cheaper than any other alternative.

And those saying engine rebuilding is becoming rarer are correct. People buy a used motor and have it installed.
We deal a lot in Subaru’s. Couple years ago had a turbo itself grenade. Cheapest way out ended up being buying a brand new Subaru shortblock right from the dealer. Was under 2 grand. Had the heads checked, new turbo,lines cleaned, away we go.

Last edited by B3422W5; 08/15/19 03:24 PM.

69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
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Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: rickseeman] #2688090
08/15/19 03:48 PM
08/15/19 03:48 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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The number of local shops has taken a big hit. Too bad it doesn't mean the ones that are still around were the best of them. One shop does "OK" block work, but the cylinder head work I had done there was... "not OK", IMO. So a shop about 15 minutes from my house gets my block work, and I still ship my heads 500 miles up to Dwayne since I know that work will be done right.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: BradH] #2688147
08/15/19 05:28 PM
08/15/19 05:28 PM
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Posts: 20,348
Eagle, Idaho
Neil Offline
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Eagle, Idaho
There is a guy here who does cranks better than anyone so you give him the rotating assembly and take the block to a different shop.

The guy that turns cranks doesn't do block machining, but the shops that do blocks and cranks don't do great crank work so you have to split the parts up to get it all done right.

The guy that does cranks thinks the other shops here do sloppy block work so he freights his own blocks for his personal race cars to a shop in California where he used to live to get them done right.

One day these guys will retire and you'll settle for crappy work ,or have to mail you stuff off someplace else.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: Neil] #2688192
08/15/19 07:28 PM
08/15/19 07:28 PM
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Oregon
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Oregon
Yeah around here it has become impossible to get good crank work done anymore. The good machinists have all retired over the past 10 years in this area and nobody has stepped up to fill the gap.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2688697
08/17/19 11:27 AM
08/17/19 11:27 AM
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Nevada
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Nevada
I'm sitting here reading through these posts. And it dawned on me. Think about it you guys. All the complaints I'm reading apply to more than Machine shops. Over my 76 years I have the same complaints about : Building contractors, Plumbers, Electricians, Automotive repair shops, Landscapers, Delivery services, and when ordering parts from just about anyone. Am I wrong? I'm sure I've stepped on just about everyone here's toes. Final note, ya think it has anything to do with the morality in this country???????

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