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Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2685622
08/08/19 09:57 AM
08/08/19 09:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,092
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah Offline
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Rogue River, OR
That is an interesting perspective Chip. Thanks for sharing it from the machinists' point of view. My 511 went through three shops before it found a fellow that follows through with his projects because a) he enjoys accomplishment and b) he likes money. My kind of guy. That and he has a sense of humor so it ends up being a pretty fun experience. I feel pretty fortunate after getting jacked around eight ways. Now that I said that he will probably retire and dissapear to a far off island where golf courses are a plenty and hemi valve trian issues are not discussed lol.



Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2685642
08/08/19 10:50 AM
08/08/19 10:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
I got started building engines after getting screwed over by a shop on the first 440 I put in my cuda in 1998. After that, it was all me b/c I wanted to know exactly what I was getting. It's too easy for someone to give you a completely built engine and lie about what's in it.

I never understood why someone tells you a week and then it ends up being 2 months for no apparent reason.
I ran a small machine shop for about 6 years and loved doing it. Always stuck to the price quoted and stuck w/ the time frame religiously. If it had to be adjusted, I let the customer know ahead of time. Always treated people like I wanted to be treated b/c I knew all too well how bad it is to be screwed around w/ on an expensive and important piece of your pride and joy. We didn't assemble engines there for liability reasons, but I'd do them at home on my own time.
I found out real quick how expensive the equipment is and how cheap customers are...especially in this area. When you have a $45k head surfacing machine (cheaper floor demo model), charge $30-$50 per head, and people complain about that...it gets frustrating.
Had to send cranks out to 2 other shops to get turned b/c we didn't have a crank grinder. Talk about an expensive piece of equipment right there.

Most of our bread and butter was rebuilding stock heads off anything and everything for local garages and dealerships. A lot of newer stuff can't be rebuilt, it's all just replaced w/ new. Pretty soon all of your business will be people rebuilding older vehicles and, of course, race engines. Here there isn't enough of either to keep a shop going (10-15 years ago anyway), so I went back to school and changed careers. The shop I was at closed 6 months after I left. Of course now there are more and more shops closing so it would seem a GOOD shop could do pretty well. I'll run into some of my old customers and they'll ask when I'm gonna open my own shop. I say as soon as I win the lottery and have money to burn. Even had a fellow racer and business owner offer to buy the equipment and set up a shop for me to run, but that never worked out.
There are only 2 good local shops around here now and I'm fortunate to be friends w/ them. My stuff usually gets done quick and I try hard not to be the nightmare customer that used to do that kind of work.
I have bought stuff here and there so I only have to have minimal work sent to the machine shop. The best thing is to have your own dial bore gauge and micrometers so you can check what your shop machined for you.




So true. Most people think building engines is a money maker. It's a money loser. Most of the customers are whined little babies, who are so cheap it's not funny. Everybody is a winner and wants a sponsorship, because of course, they will drive so much business your way you'll get wealthy. Yep.

The cost of equipment is horrendous. Tooling is just as bad or worse. I can't tell you how many times I've sat on completed work that wasn't picked up. And certainly wasn't paid for. Since companies like Jegs and Summit will sell parts cheaper than most engine builders, the little profit there was in parts is gone. Can't have the shop make any money. Of course, when the [censored] doesn't fit, or isn't what it's said to be, the customer wants ME to call THEM and deal with it. How does that work? Now I'm taking money out of my pocket to build your engine.

Then you have the good old Internet. Obviously the customer is the smartest dude on the planet. They never make a mistake. Your junk converter can make my engine look slow, but the customer has no problem walking through the pits bitching about how [censored] my engine is. And then they go on the web and tell everyone how slow your engine is. Of course, when the truth comes out, there is no repeat ions made. No walking through the pits and telling everyone it was a junk converter that was killing ET and not the engine. No web posting doing the same.

There is no such thing as a loyal customer, especially in this game. You have the customer who thinks slamming an engine together takes an hour or two, and a competent engine builder who charges 1k (or more) is still making barely above poverty wages for that money. Of course, the home hobby engine assembler doesn't know how to degree a cam, fit cam bearings, check piston to valve clearance or even own a set of micrometers, let alone a set of standards. So they have no way of knowing anything about what they do.

And when said assembler has issues, like the engine is an underachiever, the same old, same old happens again. It had to be the [censored] machinist who is stupid and can't do anything. Doesn't matter that the valves are hitting the Pistons because the cam wasn't degreed correctly, or the file fit rings are butting or a dozen other issues.


It gets old listening to guys bitching about not being able to find a machinist. If you are so smart, and so good, open your own shop. Like the guy above, when you get tired of picking [censored] with the chickens, you'll get smart and walk away. It's silly that grown men actually thinks it's a privilege to build their engine and we should be thankful we get to do it, and we should just do it because it's so damn fun. Like anything else, it's a job. That's it.

Just my .02 from personal experience. Glad I'm done with it.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: madscientist] #2685670
08/08/19 11:45 AM
08/08/19 11:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,237
North Central, Indiana
Roughbird72 Offline
pro stock
Roughbird72  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,237
North Central, Indiana
Originally Posted by madscientist
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
I got started building engines after getting screwed over by a shop on the first 440 I put in my cuda in 1998. After that, it was all me b/c I wanted to know exactly what I was getting. It's too easy for someone to give you a completely built engine and lie about what's in it.

I never understood why someone tells you a week and then it ends up being 2 months for no apparent reason.
I ran a small machine shop for about 6 years and loved doing it. Always stuck to the price quoted and stuck w/ the time frame religiously. If it had to be adjusted, I let the customer know ahead of time. Always treated people like I wanted to be treated b/c I knew all too well how bad it is to be screwed around w/ on an expensive and important piece of your pride and joy. We didn't assemble engines there for liability reasons, but I'd do them at home on my own time.
I found out real quick how expensive the equipment is and how cheap customers are...especially in this area. When you have a $45k head surfacing machine (cheaper floor demo model), charge $30-$50 per head, and people complain about that...it gets frustrating.
Had to send cranks out to 2 other shops to get turned b/c we didn't have a crank grinder. Talk about an expensive piece of equipment right there.

Most of our bread and butter was rebuilding stock heads off anything and everything for local garages and dealerships. A lot of newer stuff can't be rebuilt, it's all just replaced w/ new. Pretty soon all of your business will be people rebuilding older vehicles and, of course, race engines. Here there isn't enough of either to keep a shop going (10-15 years ago anyway), so I went back to school and changed careers. The shop I was at closed 6 months after I left. Of course now there are more and more shops closing so it would seem a GOOD shop could do pretty well. I'll run into some of my old customers and they'll ask when I'm gonna open my own shop. I say as soon as I win the lottery and have money to burn. Even had a fellow racer and business owner offer to buy the equipment and set up a shop for me to run, but that never worked out.
There are only 2 good local shops around here now and I'm fortunate to be friends w/ them. My stuff usually gets done quick and I try hard not to be the nightmare customer that used to do that kind of work.
I have bought stuff here and there so I only have to have minimal work sent to the machine shop. The best thing is to have your own dial bore gauge and micrometers so you can check what your shop machined for you.




So true. Most people think building engines is a money maker. It's a money loser. Most of the customers are whined little babies, who are so cheap it's not funny. Everybody is a winner and wants a sponsorship, because of course, they will drive so much business your way you'll get wealthy. Yep.

The cost of equipment is horrendous. Tooling is just as bad or worse. I can't tell you how many times I've sat on completed work that wasn't picked up. And certainly wasn't paid for. Since companies like Jegs and Summit will sell parts cheaper than most engine builders, the little profit there was in parts is gone. Can't have the shop make any money. Of course, when the [censored] doesn't fit, or isn't what it's said to be, the customer wants ME to call THEM and deal with it. How does that work? Now I'm taking money out of my pocket to build your engine.

Then you have the good old Internet. Obviously the customer is the smartest dude on the planet. They never make a mistake. Your junk converter can make my engine look slow, but the customer has no problem walking through the pits bitching about how [censored] my engine is. And then they go on the web and tell everyone how slow your engine is. Of course, when the truth comes out, there is no repeat ions made. No walking through the pits and telling everyone it was a junk converter that was killing ET and not the engine. No web posting doing the same.

There is no such thing as a loyal customer, especially in this game. You have the customer who thinks slamming an engine together takes an hour or two, and a competent engine builder who charges 1k (or more) is still making barely above poverty wages for that money. Of course, the home hobby engine assembler doesn't know how to degree a cam, fit cam bearings, check piston to valve clearance or even own a set of micrometers, let alone a set of standards. So they have no way of knowing anything about what they do.

And when said assembler has issues, like the engine is an underachiever, the same old, same old happens again. It had to be the [censored] machinist who is stupid and can't do anything. Doesn't matter that the valves are hitting the Pistons because the cam wasn't degreed correctly, or the file fit rings are butting or a dozen other issues.


It gets old listening to guys bitching about not being able to find a machinist. If you are so smart, and so good, open your own shop. Like the guy above, when you get tired of picking [censored] with the chickens, you'll get smart and walk away. It's silly that grown men actually thinks it's a privilege to build their engine and we should be thankful we get to do it, and we should just do it because it's so damn fun. Like anything else, it's a job. That's it.

Just my .02 from personal experience. Glad I'm done with it.

iagree
I believe it was said in a post a few years back about engine/chassis work.
If the customer thinks you did a great job, a dozen people may hear about it.
If the customer thinks you screwed him over, everybody hears about it.


72 Plymouth Roadrunner 11.08@123.25
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: Roughbird72] #2685672
08/08/19 11:54 AM
08/08/19 11:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
B
bonefish Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
thats true in all aspects of life,i found that as far as work time goes dealing with CASH and a rep as a promt payer goes a long way.i dont think you could pay me enough to be an engine builder,too many variables.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: bonefish] #2685685
08/08/19 12:37 PM
08/08/19 12:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
topside Offline
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
Against all odds, I've run into a couple of guys here in northern Idaho who I've been real happy with:
One was Lee Sixt (now retired), who was half of the Beebe & Sixt TF deal back in the '60s. He just loved that I'd worked with Kent Fuller, I guess, but his work was spot-on, reasonably priced, and pretty much on time.
The guy I've used since Lee retired is not inexpensive, but fanatical about detail & accuracy, and also pretty much on time, depending on how busy he is.
My theory is to be friendly, respectful, but upfront about expectations, look around the shop, get the expected costs & timelines, and don't grind on the money.
Only time that didn't work was with a well-known SoCal racer/engine guy, whose 1st build for me was excellent, but the 2nd was a $10,000 time-bomb that was horrible.
The post-mortem on the thing (3 easy passes) was so full of screwed-up stuff that my buddies still want to kick his a** 20 years later.

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: topside] #2685686
08/08/19 12:57 PM
08/08/19 12:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
I remember Lee Sixth when he was in SO CA, that was a long time ago shock


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: madscientist] #2685687
08/08/19 12:58 PM
08/08/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body Offline OP
enthusiast
496 A-body  Offline OP
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Posts: 369
Indy
As far as pricing, charge what you need to charge to make money doing the job, just be honest.
Don't tell someone that it is going to be $400 to bore and hone a block then blindside them with a $900 invoice

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2685693
08/08/19 01:13 PM
08/08/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body Offline OP
enthusiast
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Posts: 369
Indy
So I go to pick up the align honed block today. A 2 guy shop, one guy was working on an engine torquing down a head, other guy standing there watching him.
I say I'm there to pick up the block, let him know that he really misrepresented the cost and that this was a budget build and if he was upfront on what he was going to charge I would have found another source.
The story changed, today he didn't claim that they charge per main cap, today they story was that they had to cut the caps to get the bore in spec and that drove the cost up.
I found this very odd considering I bore gauged the main bore and found it was in spec, the reason I wanted it align honed was because the surface of the cap that mates to the block was not flat, it rocked a good bit on my surface plate and I replaced the factory torque to yield fasteners.
I personally surface ground the mating surface of the caps making sure that the same amount was taken of each one relative to the radius.
Pics below

CAPS.jpgBLOCK.jpg
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2685699
08/08/19 01:25 PM
08/08/19 01:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body Offline OP
enthusiast
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Indy
And my super clean redi-stripped block looks like they got it wet and did nothing to try it off, flash rust everywhere

rust.jpg
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2685726
08/08/19 03:08 PM
08/08/19 03:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
BES is only 90 miles from Indy.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2685729
08/08/19 03:12 PM
08/08/19 03:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Washington
Originally Posted by 496 A-body
So I go to pick up the align honed block today. A 2 guy shop, one guy was working on an engine torquing down a head, other guy standing there watching him.
I say I'm there to pick up the block, let him know that he really misrepresented the cost and that this was a budget build and if he was upfront on what he was going to charge I would have found another source.
The story changed, today he didn't claim that they charge per main cap, today they story was that they had to cut the caps to get the bore in spec and that drove the cost up.
I found this very odd considering I bore gauged the main bore and found it was in spec, the reason I wanted it align honed was because the surface of the cap that mates to the block was not flat, it rocked a good bit on my surface plate and I replaced the factory torque to yield fasteners.
I personally surface ground the mating surface of the caps making sure that the same amount was taken of each one relative to the radius.
Pics below



No offense, but I would not have line honed your block after you cut the caps. That's part of the line hone, if they need it. There is no way your surface plate cuts a cap like a dedicated cap cutter.

You should have asked them how long it took to clean up the caps after you cut them.


Again, no offense.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: 496 A-body] #2685739
08/08/19 03:55 PM
08/08/19 03:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,603
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
Originally Posted by 496 A-body
As far as pricing, charge what you need to charge to make money doing the job, just be honest.
Don't tell someone that it is going to be $400 to bore and hone a block then blindside them with a $900 invoice


WOW that guy is pricy! Not many blocks are worth $900.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: madscientist] #2685740
08/08/19 04:11 PM
08/08/19 04:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body Offline OP
enthusiast
496 A-body  Offline OP
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Posts: 369
Indy
Originally Posted by madscientist
No offense, but I would not have line honed your block after you cut the caps. That's part of the line hone, if they need it. There is no way your surface plate cuts a cap like a dedicated cap cutter.

You should have asked them how long it took to clean up the caps after you cut them.


Again, no offense.


I think you misunderstood what I did, I cut them on a surface grinder and removed .0023 of material, just enough to make the surface uniform and consistent. A cap cutter may do better but being that they ones I have seen "side wheel" grind I don't see how

grind.jpg
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2685760
08/08/19 05:39 PM
08/08/19 05:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,237
North Central, Indiana
Roughbird72 Offline
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Roughbird72  Offline
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Posts: 1,237
North Central, Indiana
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
BES is only 90 miles from Indy.


Not sure if these prices are up to date.

BES service prices


72 Plymouth Roadrunner 11.08@123.25
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: hemi-itis] #2686020
08/09/19 12:58 PM
08/09/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
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Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation
Originally Posted by hemi-itis
ms to have become the norm.If it's going to take a month,say so! I hate when they tell you,,,,,,,,,it will be done on Tuesday,,,,,they just don't say which Tuesday mad
Then you still need to be able to check the work to be certain it is to your spec! shake_head


Double mad here !


Some people think towing charges are twocents per mile THEN they get hit for over TWENTY TIMES that !! runaway

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2686267
08/10/19 12:55 PM
08/10/19 12:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 288
Nevada
M
merpar Offline
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Nevada
The old saying: One bad apple spoils the whole bushel. Not just a saying the truth. Automotive machine shops catch more flack than our government. It is hard to find a good shop and I feel that goes hand in hand with how our country has turned to lies and dishonesty. That goes with customers as well as shops. We all expect something for nothing. Some guys should not be building their own motors. Example, the machine shop hot tanks a block after all the work is done. How many guys consider that clean and put it together? I would wager 50% to 60% then they blame the machine shop when the bearings get wiped. Then the shops that promise delivery dates. The customer comes in and wants it tomorrow . So the shop says sure, just to get the work. Honesty and integrity will feed your family. I feel the customer is more at fault than the shop in most cases. I have felt for years that most Automotive machine shops do not charge enough. They have to charge more for their work in order to hire top notch workers. Suck it up fellas. If you want to drag race it is going to be expensive. A little kindness and integrity goes a long ways. My rant for the week

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: merpar] #2686298
08/10/19 04:18 PM
08/10/19 04:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408
Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408
Fulton County, PA
Walk around Machinary Row at PRI. Look at what machines and tooling costs, on top of a building and everything it takes to keep the door open. Then imagine being between a rock and a hard place - racers who don't understand what's involved and use Chinese made crap for price comparisons, and the need to pay bills, make a profit and have some kind of decent life.

Guys who are still doing it must love it.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: CMcAllister] #2686558
08/11/19 04:50 PM
08/11/19 04:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,644
North Carolina
sasquatch Offline
master
sasquatch  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,644
North Carolina
and that list is getting shorter by the minute. It seems like I here about another shop auction every week or so. Just like a lot of racers a lot of shop owners are hanging up their spurs. I have the pleasure of dealing with some really top notch shops and the vast majority will privately tell you that they are done or thinking hard about being done. A LOT of them. One even made the comment that in 10 years you will not be able to give shop machines away. It also speaks to our society, no body fixes or builds things. Just toss it and get another.
Todd

Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: sasquatch] #2686582
08/11/19 06:40 PM
08/11/19 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,237
North Central, Indiana
Roughbird72 Offline
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North Central, Indiana
30 years ago there were 3 automotive machine shops within 6-7 miles of my place, now the closest one is 42 miles away.


72 Plymouth Roadrunner 11.08@123.25
Re: Automotive machine shops WTH? [Re: Roughbird72] #2686643
08/11/19 09:38 PM
08/11/19 09:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
P
Porter67 Offline
master
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P

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
I deal with an industrial machine works, they do great work. I cant see them ever closing up. I cant ever see some of the huge industrial diesels getting replaced as a unit vs overhauled..

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