The Bluesmobile struggled at 8700' Crater Lake in this years Great Race. SO I have a nice 440 out of a 73 Imperial with the steel square bore intake. I want to build it to 69ish stock specs and run the new modern self learning EFI. I see some info on older threads but I would think these things get better every year. Not looking to scrimp $$$ so which is the best? We build engines and tune carbs so we should be able to handle install. As always, any advice appreciated. Stephen

I get not looking to cheap out, but you also need to know your plans in the future.

like some simple ones don't have spark control, some won't do mpfi, some won't handle turbo or super chargers etc..

so if all you are interested in is a stockish 440 being efi on a regular carb intake, that would be a different list than wanting to twin turbo it later.

If it was my car I'd go with a Holley Sniper kit and then add the Holley Hyperspark distributor so you'll have full control of the ignition timing. Best setup would include putting a high pressure fuel pump inside the gas tank but that does require some fab work since I doubt anyone makes a EFI ready tank for that car.

AndyF is correct, go with in tank pump. FiTech has a good system too, as long as you don't go with the FCC as they call it (Fuel Command Center) with the outside pump. Can be problematic. FiTech gets a thumps up as well otherwise and is self learning and price competitive.

GREAT pic btw!

STOCK with a mild cam. NO twin turbo, we have that on the roof. LOL Phish

I don't have any experience with the newer systems.
But I went to try and change a stock car over to efi, just to make it more reliable.
I have no intentions of hotrodding it, so I think we are in a similar boat.
I did go on the cheap, and overall still spent about the same amount as one of the kits out now.

Here are a few things I learned that might help you decide.

If you are not trying to get every single HP out of your build, spark control is a waste of time and money.
Just one extra thing to tinker with, that a regular vacuum advance distributor(still electronic) would do just fine.

A surge tank is another way to go instead of an efi gas tank, or having a custom tank built or cutting up your existing one.
However, it creates complexity. In my case, there is no mechanical carb pump to feed it, and it requires I have 2 electric pumps instead of just 1.
While there are other choices like the holley hydromat(which recommends replacment every 10 years,) the aeromotive efi pump kit with the foam, or having a sump or baffels welded into your existing tank, I think I would go for the custom tank built for efi instead.

There are several systems out there.
Each with its own unique set of issues. however for a straight stock application, I don't really think you can go wrong with any of them.
you really have to look at support for your decision.
How likely is that company going to be around in 10 years when some part fails.
I always assume the worst. So I look to see how common the replacable parts are going to be.
What o2 sensor do they need you to have. Is it proprietary, or is it a common off the shelf one.
what fuel pump is it?
did they do some odd connector or is it the standard for that part?
The only thing you have to worry about after that is the ecu.

Now if you read the board regularly, you will see people here are a bit fickle.
Each time a new efi product comes out, it is the best. Till it isn't.

Today it is holley, 6 months ago it was Fi tech. 6 months before that it was FAST Efi.

It kind of goes in cycles.
As more people use them, more problems come up.
But if you pay attention, it is for the people doing more than stock stuff generally, not just the plain swap from a carb.

I have seen the same for what I did. As you add more things the efi computer needs to do, it just adds complexity for more things to not work together, or fail.

My recommendation is to make it as simple as possible. Keep with 1 system of stuff, with good support in case you need it.
Sometimes simple means spending a bit to make it simple.
So you buy the efi tank or mod yours.
you get the returnless system if they make it. or create a short return run like corvettes do.

Good luck.

I like mega squirt products for custom port EFI stuff. But if I were to by one of the throttle body units it would be a Holley no doubt. Some friends of mine that have a local repair shop here in town have installed a few of the MSD throttle body units and were pleased with them. That was a few years ago though and you hear almost nothing of them now?

Whatever EFI system you buy today will be obsolete in a year (maybe less) and may not have service parts or tech advice available in a few years. And remember, these retrofit kits share the same intake problems as carbs and are about as antiquated as carbs.

In the end, a well-tuned carb would be much cheaper and perform just as well as any self tuning EFI out today and be serviceable long after the EFI is in the trash. About the only real advantage of a retrofit EFI system over a well tuned carb is maybe a little cold start convenience. Beyond that, a properly sized carb in a competent tuners hands will perform every bit as well as any self tuning throttle body EFI. But most guys buy a carb, slap it on out of the box, and then feel that they need to spend cubic bucks on an EFI system because the carbs doesn't perform well.

Now there are real advantages to multi port EFI with timing control. But that is unrealistic for most of us for a number of reasons. And then there is still the very real possibility of lack of service parts and tech advice in the foreseeable future.

Retrofit EFI systems may eventually come of age, overcome it's current shortcomings, and offer real advantages over carbs for the average guy. But that is not what we have today.

sorry, I have to disagree.
The OP specifically stated a problem that even a well tuned carb isn't going to overcome.
Large changes in Alt always caused problems and won't be fixed that way.

Beyond that, I think you are mistaken about being obsolete or not having parts.
I stated that case out very clearly in my post about being careful about that, but it isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.
The only thing I changed out when I went to a different system was the ecu.
The stock 5.9 mag parts remained the same between the two. the o2 sensor stayed the same as well.
All of that is off the shelf from any parts store gear.

If they ecu craps out, it is a specialty part, however, finding another one to work with my existing gear isn't that hard and wasn't that hard 5 years ago, and it is even easier now.

I am a luddite in that I don't like new tech gear for the sake of tech gear, but hear, I find it is worth it if you can afford it.

The engine has a new MSD plug and play complete ignition system. Looking at videos, can I make distributor a lockout and use the adjustable rotor for the EFI? Or just get the Holley distributor. I can move the MSD system over to Lemon race car. Also, there is a small vent return line to tank from a canister on radiator support. I doubt it would be large enough for the return line some systems require. The MSD Atomic says it is single fuel line, any users of that system here. Thanks again

This years altitude change had a lot of us sea level guys working on carbs in the evening AFTER the 2 hour viewing for the crowds. Just looking for something to return our PBR time. LOL

PS Wrong thread but the Ugly Stick Hemi Coronet with the Pro System carb required nothing and ran perfect!!! For sale on Hemmings. Jake

Fair enough. Then there are 2 advantages to retrofit EFI; more convenient cold starting, and automatic altitude adjustment.

But I have to disagree that proper carb tuning can't overcome problems at altitude.

It wouldn't be that difficult to be prepared to make any carb adjustments necessary for altitude. Heck, my family took a trip through Colorado in 1969 with a slant 6 in an old Fury with no problems. And no adjustments. Carbs have been used successfully at altitude as long as there have been carbs. It's not like you have to have EFI to operate above sea level.

And if carb owners are not prepared to make altitude adjustments to a carb after carbs have been around for the better part of a century, how prepared would you think the average guy will be to piece together the parts necessary to keep their EFI system up as it becomes obsolete. And make no mistake about it, any system out today is destined to become obsolete, and all too soon.

Most muscle car guys with carbs do not have any real problems with cold starts or with operating at high altitudes. But ALL current retrofit EFI owners will likely deal with some sort of issue getting service, parts, or tech help at some point if they keep it long enough.

Just think, a few years from now and the owner with one of these systems (especially a system assembled with pieces from different manufacturers) has a problem. Who does he take it to? How many local shops would be prepared to deal with this? Even today, if an owner of one of these systems were to break down, how many places could he take it to be fixed? That will be a real issue for many guys.

I'll say again; retrofit EFI may well become a viable if not preferred method of fuel delivery for the average muscle car guy some day. But it is not there yet. Not for most of us, anyway.

My first foray into EFI was the old Holley Projection analog system.

Not too much support out there for that and Holley has been around "forever" and most of it was based on GM parts.

You can find OE replacement parts if you know what you are looking for but if you need anything proprietary for it you are SOL.

I'd recommend selling the MSD plug and play ignition system (or moving it to another car) and using the Hyperspark distributor with the Holley Sniper. The MSD distributor doesn't really play very well with the Sniper. There are a lot of advantages of having the ECU control the timing with a Sniper and the cost isn't very high for what you get. Once you have a Sniper on the car you'll wonder why you waited so long to do the conversion. If you go with the Super Sniper you can data log three pressure channels. The data logger can be used to solve a lot of issues that pop up on project cars. Transmission pressure, brake pressure, fuel pressure, oil pressure, crankcase pressure, coolant system pressure, etc. A lot of people who argue about carbs vs. EFI don't even think about the data logging potential.

Do the return fuel system.

Be sure to ask how the system you want corrects for barometric pressure changes(altitude). Some systems take a MAP sample when you turn the key on, so they may not correct as well as a system that has a separate barometric pressure sensor. I have no idea how these throttle body kits handle that, they should work toward the target Air fuel ratio regardless of altitude I guess.

Between the product reviews and comments here, we will try the Sniper setup with the correct distributor etc. Looks like a custom tank build with the intank pump and return line is the way to go. Seems the Atomic single line works in cool climates but not in South Louisiana heat from what I read, obviously not from experience. That may be a great system as well. Will get on it after USNATS with the hemi. Thanks for the input. Phish

PS Ignore the date on this photo, need to get my granddaughter to turn that off. I am camera illiterate.

I will wait until after Indy to order as a lot of engine builders will be there. Thanks

I'll disagree with you, too.

EFI will outperform the pro carb tuner.
It constantly tunes the system for atmospheric conditions. Cold start and altitude are just two parameters. When climbing to 8,000+ feet the EFI doesn't need to stop and pop the hood. Continue on to 11,000 feet and cruise into snow. The EFI makes changes for the altitude and temperature as you drive. Head down the other side of the mountain and the EFI retunes the car for lower altitude and higher temperatures.

Driving on a hot day and hit a cold front and a storm? No need to pop the hood. EFI compensates automatically.

The awesome pro carb tuners will diddle with the carb when clouds block the sun. The EFI guy is sitting back relaxing or working on something other than the tune.

Under WOT conditions the carb will run with (and sometimes squeak past) EFI. However, on the road the EFI will win every time.

As for parts availability, with a proper system the only part you need to worry about is the controller itself. Everything else will be off the shelf stuff. Chances are good those bits will be around for a long time due to production volume and interchangeability. Should the computer itself die you would need to replace it but in all but a few extreme cases everything outside the computer will be good.

I still have an old Electromotive TEC II system that works fine and it's been out of production nearly 20 years. If I want to upgrade I can pop a new computer on there and reprogram.

Some of the more basic, or older EFI systems do not tune for altitude on the fly. They sample the barometric pressure at startup only and that is it because they read it from the same map sensor it uses to determine engine load and the only time it sees atmospheric pressure is before the engine cranks.

They take the initial reading (like my TEC II does) then use the O2 sensor to correct the air/fuel ratio as you drive through altitude changes. That's more than sufficient in the vast majority of situations. After all, altitude means less oxygen. That shows up as a rich condition so the computer backs off the fuel as frequently as it samples.

It's pretty rare to find a carb tuner who can make several changes each second.