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Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: Lee446] #2678610
07/18/19 11:12 AM
07/18/19 11:12 AM
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West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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Originally Posted by Lee446
I put the FBO plate in my Hemi, but with the vac advance hooked up, when you got off the gas after a banzai charge, it sounded like a machine gun as the 2-fours slammed shut, vac shot straight up and over-advanced. The guy at FBO told me that limiting the vac advance to add only 10-12* was the answer. I hooked my timing light up and, at idle, used the allen wrench to set it to 10* additional advance and noted the idle vac reading, this is using non-ported vac, as recommended by FBO. I shut the engine off, removed the cap and used my mity-vac to duplicate the idle vac on the advance can, used a sharpie to mark the arm where it goes out through the slot milled in the dist housing, drilled a 1/16 hole through the mark and put in a spring type roll pin, Problem solved! The pin physically limits the arm from moving further while allowing an additional 10* advance when driving normally. Backyard engineering, but it has worked fine for several years now.


THIS!

This is the one of the best ways I've read about to modify or limit the amount of canister vacuum advance. The small wrap of wire also sounds good. I have been contemplating adding vacuum advance too, and have been planning on welding and filling the vacuum advance canister arm to adjust the amount of vacuum advance to my engine's needs, but have not gone there yet. I don't know how to tailor the vacuum advance to my engine at cruise speed. Can anyone please describe the theory on that?

I am thinking of buying a quality vacuum advance equipt distributor, locking out the mechanical( or buying the MSD Programable box) Deciding which distributor to buy is a dilemma. I like the HEI style terminals, and would like to have a bigger cap that's high enough to clear my valve covers. No one makes one like that.

I really need to put a vacuum gauge on my motor to see how much vacuum I pull at cruise on the freeway. I know it idles in the single digits at 900 rpm, but don't know how much it pulls at steady state cruise out on the highway. I have always read it wants more that the 35* while cruising on the highway. I speculate probably 12* to 18* more, but how does one know what is optimal at steady state cruise and how does one test for that???.

I have tried all the bigger bushings from Four Seconds Flat, and the motor liked 22* initial with 35 total, but my timing was still bouncing around between 22* and 35* at idle. I tried using the stiffer springs which did help stabilize it , but the advance was coming in too late. I finally locked the Pro billet dizy out, and of course my timing is rock solid now.

On top of all this, my MSD Pro-Billet has a significant phasing problem. I have to use their pricey adjustable rotor at nearly maximum adjustment just to get the rotor lined up with the terminal. Taking care of the phasing problem dramatically reduced the wear on my cap and rotor for obvious reasons.

Last edited by jbc426; 07/18/19 11:14 AM.

1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: jbc426] #2678707
07/18/19 02:31 PM
07/18/19 02:31 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote
I don't know how to tailor the vacuum advance to my engine at cruise speed. Can anyone please describe the theory on that?. I have always read it wants more that the 35* while cruising on the highway. I speculate probably 12* to 18* more, but how does one know what is optimal at steady state cruise and how does one test for that???.
add vac adv amt till you are just under the pinging point in everyday driveing under varying load/RPM conditions on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day & the same on a steady interstate cruise (also on your hottest/driest day) & peoples' hearing varies & there is silent ping so give it a cushion. You want to be close to that line but never over it.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: RapidRobert] #2678712
07/18/19 02:43 PM
07/18/19 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RapidRobert
Quote
I don't know how to tailor the vacuum advance to my engine at cruise speed. Can anyone please describe the theory on that?. I have always read it wants more that the 35* while cruising on the highway. I speculate probably 12* to 18* more, but how does one know what is optimal at steady state cruise and how does one test for that???.
add vac adv amt till you are just under the pinging point in everyday driveing under varying load/RPM conditions on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day & the same on a steady interstate cruise (also on your hottest/driest day) & peoples' hearing varies & there is silent ping so give it a cushion. You want to be close to that line but never over it.


This is where the laptop tuning capability of the Sniper really shines. Get a buddy to sit in the passenger seat as you drive down the road and you can adjust the ignition timing while you drive. As you slowly add timing you can watch on the screen as the engine uses less fuel and drops in temperature. You just keep adding timing until it starts to tell you that it doesn't want anymore. Then you go smooth out the transition so the timing will drop back down as soon as you get into the throttle. You can do the same thing with a mechanical distributor but it takes a lot longer.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: AndyF] #2678730
07/18/19 03:43 PM
07/18/19 03:43 PM
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Chicago, IL
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Our combos are pretty similar. Mine is 505 w 10-1 compression, TF 240 heads and Comp solid FT 248@.050, .538 lift, 110lsa, 950 proform carb and MSD pro billet.

I have timing set at 20 initial and 34 total. Runs great and no bogs or cooling issues. Havn't run it or dynoed, but seems to work pretty well.


2 kids and a dog
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: TonyS451] #2678773
07/18/19 05:36 PM
07/18/19 05:36 PM
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If you take the time to learn how to properly set up the dist and get the vac advance lined out, you will never go back. Not talking about race cars that need locked out distributors. I have done a couple for my friends MP dist(old style) with the FBO plate and getting the canister right and they are much more responsive and actually picked up 1-2 mpg. On a street car, Vacumn advance is your friend.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: Lee446] #2678804
07/18/19 06:46 PM
07/18/19 06:46 PM
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Pattison Texas
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Originally Posted by Lee446
If you take the time to learn how to properly set up the dist and get the vac advance lined out, you will never go back. Not talking about race cars that need locked out distributors. I have done a couple for my friends MP dist(old style) with the FBO plate and getting the canister right and they are much more responsive and actually picked up 1-2 mpg. On a street car, Vacumn advance is your friend.



This ^^^^^^^


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: Lee446] #2678914
07/18/19 11:37 PM
07/18/19 11:37 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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I need to get this done on my 511. William Baldwin from Baldwin carbs says he once found 40hp on a dyno with the proper curve. He has a distributor machine and offers a service setting up dist. curves for your application. He does this for the circle track crowd particularly, but should work good on any street/strip deal.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: mopar dave] #2678928
07/19/19 02:07 AM
07/19/19 02:07 AM
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My 63 is a 99% street car as its a 493 with Indy EZ heads. Its at 10.6 comp and has good .045 quench. It likes about 21 initial and 36 total. No vacuum advance as I got a great deal on a Mallory race dist with no vacuum advance. And I have full advance by 1800 rpm. The car runs awesome like that as it has great driveability. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 07/19/19 02:07 AM.
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: 383man] #2678974
07/19/19 08:42 AM
07/19/19 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 383man
My 63 is a 99% street car as its a 493 with Indy EZ heads. Its at 10.6 comp and has good .045 quench. It likes about 21 initial and 36 total. No vacuum advance as I got a great deal on a Mallory race dist with no vacuum advance. And I have full advance by 1800 rpm. The car runs awesome like that as it has great driveability. Ron



The internet story used to be that you couldn't have a decent running car by pulling the full timing in that quick. Of course, that doesn't seem to be the story now, at least with you and I. I run my total at 38, street and race. But I'm looking for the performance side of things.


You got your car cooking and you drive to the track. Running 10's, that is about as good as it gets, eh?

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: SportF] #2678993
07/19/19 09:37 AM
07/19/19 09:37 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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Mine likes all the initial I can give it. I suspect the 270@50 cam is the cause. I tried locked out, but starting issues arrived and I have a 10* retard start. The short 5 or 6* curve works for me. Need to get a vac dist on this thing curved by William Baldwin. I currently have 6" vac in drive, 9 in park and 16" cruising.

Last edited by mopar dave; 07/19/19 09:39 AM.
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: Lee446] #2679069
07/19/19 12:10 PM
07/19/19 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee446
If you take the time to learn how to properly set up the dist and get the vac advance lined out, you will never go back. Not talking about race cars that need locked out distributors. I have done a couple for my friends MP dist(old style) with the FBO plate and getting the canister right and they are much more responsive and actually picked up 1-2 mpg. On a street car, Vacumn advance is your friend.

I'm currently using a mechanical-only distributor, but am interested in whether I can modify an older MP electronic distributor to work properly with vacuum advance. The problems I've had in the past was due to too much advance at cruise RPM and/or the rotor phasing causing misfires when the advance plate rotated.

I found something on FABO, IIRC, that a member there who I also see on occasion here ("Mattax"?) posted regarding modifying & tuning OEM-style electronic & single-point distributors w/ vacuum advance units. It has some of the same ideas that I had to try, as well as some testing results. If I find the link, I'll add it here.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: BradH] #2679115
07/19/19 02:53 PM
07/19/19 02:53 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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I'm looking to pick up some MPG. This 511 is seriously thirsty. I spoke with Don at FBO about his vac distributors a few years back when they were still in development. He wasn't clear if they were available in magnetic pick up or if they would fit without clearancing the valve cover or aftermarket heads. I also looked into Ice Ignition distributors as they have an adjustable electronic advance with 10 or 12 different curves to pick from. You have to have their box thou. Don at FBO will custom curve your distributor if you buy from him.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: mopar dave] #2679121
07/19/19 03:08 PM
07/19/19 03:08 PM
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Just looked at Don's site again and it looks like his vac dist are mag pick up. Cool. They have the wrong plug- in connecter thou. Maybe he would switch that out for me to the MSD type? I'm seriously thinking about getting one with a custom curve.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: mopar dave] #2679127
07/19/19 03:19 PM
07/19/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
I'm looking to pick up some MPG. This 511 is seriously thirsty. I spoke with Don at FBO about his vac distributors a few years back when they were still in development. He wasn't clear if they were available in magnetic pick up or if they would fit without clearancing the valve cover or aftermarket heads. I also looked into Ice Ignition distributors as they have an adjustable electronic advance with 10 or 12 different curves to pick from. You have to have their box thou. Don at FBO will custom curve your distributor if you buy from him.


Good grief! Now that there is kinda funny! No offence intended but a 512 CID engine isn't going to known as a gas miser... whistling


The end is near.....
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: tboomer] #2679135
07/19/19 03:46 PM
07/19/19 03:46 PM
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I knew someone would have a response like that. It is a little funny, but with the correct timing advance and more cruise timing using vacuum i'm sure it is possible to get a couple MPG better. I can't keep gas in this thing. A 15-20 mile cruise uses about 3 gallons of fuel, is that normal? Planning a 200 mile round trip and would like to see a little better fuel economy.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: mopar dave] #2679180
07/19/19 05:58 PM
07/19/19 05:58 PM
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Something is wrong, it should get 8-12 mpg I would guess.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: SportF] #2679227
07/19/19 08:55 PM
07/19/19 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SportF
Originally Posted by 383man
My 63 is a 99% street car as its a 493 with Indy EZ heads. Its at 10.6 comp and has good .045 quench. It likes about 21 initial and 36 total. No vacuum advance as I got a great deal on a Mallory race dist with no vacuum advance. And I have full advance by 1800 rpm. The car runs awesome like that as it has great driveability. Ron



The internet story used to be that you couldn't have a decent running car by pulling the full timing in that quick. Of course, that doesn't seem to be the story now, at least with you and I. I run my total at 38, street and race. But I'm looking for the performance side of things.


You got your car cooking and you drive to the track. Running 10's, that is about as good as it gets, eh?


Yes she runs real good. Great throttle response at any rpm. Just step down on it and it goes. But I do have good quench and a custom grind cam from Dwayne Porter to keep my cyl pressure 92 pump gas friendly. The cam is a solid flat tappet with 264 & 270 @ .050 and .585 & .592 lift. Has a 110 LSA and I have it on a 106 ICL. My car has never had any ping at all and I have run it at 38 total also. Dwayne is very good as I told him I wanted bit lumpy of an idle as that's what I love and I wanted to make good power and run 92 pump and it has done just what I wanted it to. I forgot the intake closing as I have to look on the cam card but I know he has it right so I don't go over 200 psi cyl pressure. If I had a dist with vacuum advance I would try it and see how it does on my car but honestly I am more then pleased with how the car runs with just the mechanical advance dist. Course we can always do better. smile

As for my fuel mileage ?? All I can say is this 493 wanted a heck of a lot more fuel them my old 440 did and I have never checked the mileage as I knew it would eat a lot of gas. And I figure if I am worried about my fuel mileage on my hotrod then I am in the wrong hobby. grin Ron

Last edited by 383man; 07/19/19 08:56 PM.
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: 383man] #2679235
07/19/19 09:25 PM
07/19/19 09:25 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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Dwayne spec'd my cam as well and i'm very happy with it. Engine runs great and very responsive with decent vacuum, but like you say, always room for improvements. That's what keeps this hobby interesting. My Thumper carb is awesome as well, but I may be able to lean the jetting a bit in the cruise mode and add a vac distributor. These engines can make big power and get reasonable fuel mileage too as Dom has a customer with a large cubic inch big block making big power running the power tour getting 16 MPG. So gas miser or not better fuel mileage with these big engines is possible.

Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: mopar dave] #2679240
07/19/19 09:39 PM
07/19/19 09:39 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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The key to good fuel mileage is the right foot position and low cruise RPM up work
Of course that include getting the AFR correct also along with the best ignition timing wrench


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: What timing are you running on your 512? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2679242
07/19/19 09:48 PM
07/19/19 09:48 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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Yeah, I agree cab. My right foot is part of the problem, but I return from a short cruise with a big smile every time. Torque is cool. My cruise AFR is 13.5 on average. Think I can clean that up with IFR and T-slot jets.

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