Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2675936
07/09/19 11:36 AM
07/09/19 11:36 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
|
If 'sleeve' is referring to the intermediate shaft bushing.....
In my humble opinion, the bottom of the gear and top of the bushing wear together poorly.
That's not to say it doesn't work LOL. No, It works just great. Change the oil often, you won't have any problems.
I have heard of the parts being machined to accept a bearing (torrington washer) to stop the wear.
Although I already pressed on a bronze gear for my latest build, I'm thinking about pressing it right back off again and trying Melonized.............
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2675952
07/09/19 12:08 PM
07/09/19 12:08 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
Hi, just curious when you use a bronze gear on a billet roller cam, and a bronze sleeve to support the gear, what is supposed to keep them from wearing against each other?
Oil I ran one(Milidon gear on a Pioneer bushing) on my old pump gas car with no wear problems for over 3000 miles and hundreds of 1/4 and 1/8 mile races I recently had a Mopar brand oil pump drive with bronze gear wobble horribly in the block, It was bad enough to make the distributor move around when running or on the starter Bad parts are out there so make sure yours is not one of them
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/09/19 12:43 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2676008
07/09/19 02:43 PM
07/09/19 02:43 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
|
Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408
Fulton County, PA
|
Shim. There used to be a shim kit sold that was used to adjust clearance/end play on the shaft to reduce erratic timing. Although I never saw wear there being an issue on anything I had. Maybe need to check and make sure that the distributor shaft is not loading the gear against the bushing for some odd reason.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2676023
07/09/19 03:55 PM
07/09/19 03:55 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
|
that's the problem, I have been changing the oil often, and the gold colored sparkly things are disheartening. At least I think I know where it's coming from.
Understood and yes, I agree it is easily observed. If you take a minute and pull the intermediate shaft out and have a look at the bottom You'll probably also notice the parts marking each other up. This seems to do no harm, but it is far from optimum. There are so many other things to be concerned with that this often goes overlooked even though many of us are aware.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2676025
07/09/19 04:09 PM
07/09/19 04:09 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
Does your bushing have oil grooves on the top flange?
So do....... some don’t.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2676026
07/09/19 04:09 PM
07/09/19 04:09 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,678 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,678
W. Kentucky
|
I haven't seen them for sale, but I haven't looked everywhere yet. I know there are plastic gears for Chevys (they were OEM on some engines). I'm working on a 426 Hemi.
I was pondering adding a thin hard steel shim between the two soft parts, so they won't want to gall.
I used a valve spring shim for a motorcycle on my small block build and in two years have never had any shiny brass in my oil or filter. IIRC it was .014' and I didn't cut anything.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: justinp61]
#2676029
07/09/19 04:26 PM
07/09/19 04:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,005 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,005
Tulsa OK
|
I haven't seen issue with the bushing to gear wear on my small block. I was surprised on my last inspection to discover that the bronze bushing in the block was totally smoked. I replaced it and added a small hole to the galley plug to give the area a direct shot of oil. I have no idea if this will help or if you can do this on a big block/Hemi.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340 87 "Chrysler" Conquest
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Bad340fish]
#2676034
07/09/19 04:33 PM
07/09/19 04:33 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
|
I like the idea of the torrington washer between the two parts. A very simple solution to an ongoing annoyance. Thanks
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2676053
07/09/19 05:37 PM
07/09/19 05:37 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 147 AZ
squirrel
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 147
AZ
|
Does your bushing have oil grooves on the top flange?
So do....... some don’t. Yes, it does.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2676705
07/12/19 01:40 AM
07/12/19 01:40 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
I have noticed shiny particles in the oil drained from my vacuum pump puke tank every time I drain it, twice a day at the races on my new motor so I decided to look at the gear, it was a new Mopar brand and it is making metal since start up evidently This motor has a set of Jesel paired shaft rocker arm set up on the 440-1 heads so I don't want it failing, I reused the one out of the old motor that has 5 + years of racing on it with no issues or evidence of wear on it yet I'll watch it carefully now and hope it doesn't start wearing against this camshaft
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2676844
07/12/19 03:34 PM
07/12/19 03:34 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 764 Midwest
fuseable
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 764
Midwest
|
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.
Last edited by fuseable; 07/12/19 03:36 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: fuseable]
#2677688
07/15/19 03:37 PM
07/15/19 03:37 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
|
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run. Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!!
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2677770
07/15/19 08:28 PM
07/15/19 08:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run. Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!! Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself.
Last edited by BradH; 07/15/19 08:45 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: BradH]
#2677855
07/16/19 08:35 AM
07/16/19 08:35 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
|
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run. Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!! Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself. Maybe you need to make some friends !!!
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2677915
07/16/19 12:23 PM
07/16/19 12:23 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run. Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!! Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself. Maybe you need to make some friends !!! I hear ya'. I lost my access to a Smithy when I moved my stuff out of a shared shop when my wife & I bought our house 20 years ago. Never thought I'd need to use it often enough to justify buying one for myself, and don't think that's really changed. It's only times like this where it would be handy to have it right there to knock out simple mods.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2678283
07/17/19 12:41 PM
07/17/19 12:41 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421 montana
BANDIT
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421
montana
|
Where do you get the 25 cent Torrington washer from? Jim
64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress 1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.35@165. 4400 DA 250” Neil and Parks Slip Joint. 7.36@183. 4600 DA 242" Mullis Dragster. 6.90@ 200mph
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: BANDIT]
#2678286
07/17/19 12:48 PM
07/17/19 12:48 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666
North Dakota
|
Where do you get the 25 cent Torrington washer from? Jim Jim, I was wondering that also. I am also amazed that a Torrington roller thrust washer wouldn't brinnel a soft mating surface like brass.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2678619
07/18/19 11:28 AM
07/18/19 11:28 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421 montana
BANDIT
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421
montana
|
I have a Smithy, so the machining isn’t a problem, was just wondering where to get washer. McMaster-Carr I guess is good as place as any to start. My Indy block actually had too much distance between bushing face and distributor mount surface, I took a little off of the bottom of the distributor to keep gear from moving so much. Jim
64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress 1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.35@165. 4400 DA 250” Neil and Parks Slip Joint. 7.36@183. 4600 DA 242" Mullis Dragster. 6.90@ 200mph
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: squirrel]
#2678756
07/18/19 05:02 PM
07/18/19 05:02 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
|
I think he meant the Torrington washer (the smooth race), not the Torrington thrust bearing (the thing with rollers). The washer is kind of thick for this application, facing the thrust surface of the gear in a lathe would be a good idea if you go that route? Exactly. The washer is .030 thick and smooth enough to run a bearing on so is sure as hell won't harm either the gear or the bushing. I buy them at local bearing supply shops - an "off the shelf" item.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: second 70]
#2678758
07/18/19 05:03 PM
07/18/19 05:03 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
|
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too. The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!!
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2678761
07/18/19 05:08 PM
07/18/19 05:08 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
Do you have a brand and part number for those good washers?
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/18/19 05:09 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2678762
07/18/19 05:10 PM
07/18/19 05:10 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too. The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!! That gear is worn out
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2679067
07/19/19 12:09 PM
07/19/19 12:09 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,695 central il.
second 70
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,695
central il.
|
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too. The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!! That gear is worn out I totally agree.This was my first time using one and was surprised how fast it wore out. It only had 3,000 street miles on it. I added a collar now and check it much more often.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: second 70]
#2679071
07/19/19 12:15 PM
07/19/19 12:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too. The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!! That gear is worn out I totally agree.This was my first time using one and was surprised how fast it wore out. It only had 3,000 street miles on it. I added a collar now and check it much more often. Has restricting the gear movement w/ the collar showed reduction in wear?
Last edited by BradH; 07/19/19 12:42 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: second 70]
#2681026
07/24/19 08:32 PM
07/24/19 08:32 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
|
I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. Al can the new bushing be installed with engine in car and cam still installed? Absolutely.
|
|
|
Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?
[Re: Stanton]
#2681139
07/25/19 08:56 AM
07/25/19 08:56 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. Al can the new bushing be installed with engine in car and cam still installed? Absolutely. There should be a thread from the last 4 to 6 months that talked about what tools can be used to remove & install the tower bushing.
|
|
|
|
|