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Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? #2674595
07/05/19 08:33 PM
07/05/19 08:33 PM
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poorboy Offline OP
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The trans in my hot rod pickup has had a pretty rough life in its short time (about 500 miles spread out over a couple of months).
It started off with water in the trans. We assume the water got into the torque converter between the time it was pulled from my son's car and got installed in my truck. 2 power flushes, and two rounds of dropping the pan, changing the filter, and adding Trans X after a 30 minute run and finally the fluid was (and is) clean.
Then I had an issue with seals leaking, which have been solved.
Then I can't feel it shift so I had my buddy put the truck on his scan tool. Governor pressure was at 106 lbs. I just dropped the pan to install the new governor pressure switch and the transducer. The fluid looked great, the bottom of the pan is pretty clean, except for the pieces in the pictures. The material looks to me like it is clutch material, but the edges show no curve, both edges are parallel and the pieces are about a 1/2" wide between the straight edges. It appears to have originally been straight line pieces, nothing like I've never seen in an auto trans before. Laid out in one line, it could have been 12" long, or more then one piece at least 2 1/2" long (the longest piece is 2"), none of the pieces have a straight edge on either end. From a side view the pieces are about 1/16" thick. The longest piece has a slight curve when viewed from the side. One surface is shinny smooth and the other surface is slightly rough (like one would expect from an auto trans clutch disc).

The last picture shows the back side (smooth side) of the biggest piece. You can see the imprint of something round in bedded in the material. Three of the other smaller pieces also show this round mark, but it is not as pronounced.

The "O" ring is from the trans dipstick, ignore it a new seal has been installed.

I'm not expecting any good news, but I would like to have an idea what this material is and where it may have come from. Thanks Gene

P1010083.JPGP1010084.JPGP1010085.JPGP1010086.JPG
Last edited by poorboy; 07/05/19 08:34 PM.
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: poorboy] #2674640
07/05/19 10:48 PM
07/05/19 10:48 PM
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Almost looks like what’s left of a spun bushing - the metal backing of it.

That trans has - in the OD unit, two OD sun gear bushings, an ORC bushing, and in the trans the front clutch has a large bushing too.
I would expect a chia pet on the magnet if you failed a bushing.

And that’s the type of junk that screws up the governor pressure solenoid and transducer.

Can’t understand how the pan could be clean with what you show here.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Transman] #2674656
07/06/19 12:15 AM
07/06/19 12:15 AM
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The magnet is pretty clean, as was the bottom of the pan. This stuff stood out really well against the relatively shiny steel pan bottom. I wiped both the magnet and the bottom of the pan off with one of those blue disposable shop towels. The trans fluid was very clean. There is probably only 200-300 miles on this fluid change, and only about 30 miles on it since we put it on the scanner. Probably hasn't had enough use to turn everything into a Chia pet yet.

This stuff is definitely not metal, it crumbles like clutch lining material.
Wed night when I drove the truck to my shop, when you left a red light, it felt like it was in 3rd. It slipped a bit (about 1/2 way across an intersection) then felt like the clutch quit slipping and would pull pretty good up to 30 mph. Could not feel it shift at all, but if you manually pulled it into low and shifted, you could feel it shift one time before you reached 30 mph.

I suppose it would be a waste of ATF+4 to fill it and try to get another couple of months out of the trans, right? Gene

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: poorboy] #2674676
07/06/19 04:21 AM
07/06/19 04:21 AM
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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That is front band lining. Water will dissolve the adhesive.


I never learned to count my blessings, I choose instead to live inside my disasters.

The Scamp is sold, now just two old trucks and one new one.
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NP435, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Magnum 5.2 MPI and NV4500 coming soon.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi!
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2674679
07/06/19 06:12 AM
07/06/19 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
That is front band lining. Water will dissolve the adhesive.



That's what I thought also as to me it looks like a band lining came off ? Ron

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: 383man] #2674690
07/06/19 07:52 AM
07/06/19 07:52 AM
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So what you show crumbles? Sorry, didn’t catch that.

If that’s the case I would agree - band lining failed.

Last edited by Transman; 07/06/19 08:15 PM.
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Transman] #2674761
07/06/19 10:51 AM
07/06/19 10:51 AM
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My suggestion would be to just bite the bullet and get it redone.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Sniper] #2675112
07/07/19 09:37 AM
07/07/19 09:37 AM
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I’d pull the pan and see how it looks inside.

If the front band is the one that debonded and the drum is ok you could pull the valve body, replace the band and replace the governor solenoid and transducer.

You may get lucky and get you through the summer until you can do a rebuild.

If the water damaged the front band no telling how long the discs and other band will last.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Transman] #2675127
07/07/19 10:48 AM
07/07/19 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Transman
I’d pull the pan and see how it looks inside.

If the front band is the one that debonded and the drum is ok you could pull the valve body, replace the band and replace the governor solenoid and transducer.

You may get lucky and get you through the summer until you can do a rebuild.

If the water damaged the front band no telling how long the discs and other band will last.


How do you replace the band without pulling the pump? Because I've tried before and never could do it.


I never learned to count my blessings, I choose instead to live inside my disasters.

The Scamp is sold, now just two old trucks and one new one.
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NP435, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Magnum 5.2 MPI and NV4500 coming soon.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi!
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2675150
07/07/19 12:01 PM
07/07/19 12:01 PM
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There is no way to replace the band without pulling the pump. Even those flimsy bands still have lugs that will not clear the case if trying to fish around the drum.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: 469runner] #2675159
07/07/19 12:23 PM
07/07/19 12:23 PM
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Overhaul

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: dart4forte] #2675185
07/07/19 01:21 PM
07/07/19 01:21 PM
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Interesting.

Never had an occasion to replace one in a vehicle but was told that they could be.

Guess I was told wrong.

Maybe try searching PATC for “slip in front band”.

Last edited by Transman; 07/07/19 03:46 PM.
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Transman] #2675278
07/07/19 05:50 PM
07/07/19 05:50 PM
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I have seen them for the Ford C6 because it was a pretty common problem but I've not seen one for a 727. I guess they make them now but since this trans has already delaminated the band I would say cut the losses and overhaul it now.


I never learned to count my blessings, I choose instead to live inside my disasters.

The Scamp is sold, now just two old trucks and one new one.
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NP435, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Magnum 5.2 MPI and NV4500 coming soon.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi!
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2675325
07/07/19 08:27 PM
07/07/19 08:27 PM
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Like I said earlier - maybe you can luck out and get by for a few months then do a downtown job.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2675342
07/07/19 09:02 PM
07/07/19 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Originally Posted by Transman
I’d pull the pan and see how it looks inside.

If the front band is the one that debonded and the drum is ok you could pull the valve body, replace the band and replace the governor solenoid and transducer.

You may get lucky and get you through the summer until you can do a rebuild.

If the water damaged the front band no telling how long the discs and other band will last.


How do you replace the band without pulling the pump? Because I've tried before and never could do it.




I did it years ago in a GM or Ford auto trans as it was long ago. At that time I worked at an independent shop and they wanted me to just pop a band in it which I normally would not do as I would want to tear the trans down and check it all out. But the shop I worked at got a two-piece slip-in band. I had to cut the old band with metal cutters and then slip the new band in which had a removable end so it would fit in and then the one end could be put on and installed. I did not care for that type of band but that's what they wanted. Never tried one on a Mopar but I guess it could be done with the two piece slip-in band. Course you would have to drop the valve body. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 07/07/19 09:05 PM.
Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: 383man] #2675352
07/07/19 09:27 PM
07/07/19 09:27 PM
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Thanks for the info and the opinions guys. Its kind of what I expected, but really didn't want to hear. It is what it is. I remember several years ago I tried to replace the front band on a 727 that was still in the car, that didn't work out so well. I can't believe this one would be any different.

At this point, I think I'm going to fill it up with the cheapest atf I can find, and put it in the yard. Hopefully It will move around enough I can keep the grass cut around it. Maybe in the spring I will pull it down and put a reman trans in it.

I'm done spending money on this one for this year. I should have replaced this trans at the beginning, before it ever went into the truck. I could have paid for about 1/2 the cost of the rebuild with all the jacking around I've done with this one. Gene

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: poorboy] #2675795
07/08/19 11:51 PM
07/08/19 11:51 PM
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Your “feels like it’s starting in 3rd, but can pull down and shift manually” sounds like the gov psi transducer. I carry that and a solenoid with me on long trips smile

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: poorboy] #2676022
07/09/19 03:52 PM
07/09/19 03:52 PM
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Don't give up yet, it is possible to replace the band, they are real cheap too. You don't have to even buy the so called "slip band".
I would buy the governor and solenoid kit also, which isn't so cheap. Buy 2 bands in case you ruin the first.
.
You can carefully smash the tab down on one side, maybe squeeze it with a press, or grind it down. cut the old one with snips And fish the new one in. I've done it, it works.

search YouTube to get a better idea. There is a dimension, I forget what it is, 7/16 or 1/2 that fits between the case.

I also like to ad a drain plug.

Re: Laying in the pan of my 46Re trans. What is it? [Re: JAMESDART] #2676439
07/10/19 11:12 PM
07/10/19 11:12 PM
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I've added a drain plug to the pan a few fluid changes ago.

At this point, my concern is that if the water that got into the trans has killed the glue holding the band lining material to the band, the lining on the clutch discs can't be far behind. I just don't see any other reason the band lining material would have come off the band in such big pieces. The most abuse this trans has seen since its been in this truck was to have the throttle floored a few times with it in drive. To buy a band to cobble into place (if I can even get a new one into it) then have the linings on all the clutch plates fall off has too much chance of being a real possibility at this time. This trans has been pretty unforgiving up to now. I think I just need to step up and get it rebuilt or replace it.

The reason I dropped the pan was to replace the governor pressure switch and the transducer, the pieces of band lining material laying in the bottom of the pan was an added bonus I really didn't want to see. I suspect there may be 200 miles (maybe 3 weeks or a month) since the pan was off the last time. The best price on ATF +4 I can get around here will cost me $50 just to refill the trans. The cheap generic stuff is about 1/2 that much. I've installed the pressure switch and the transducer, I think I'm putting the cheap fluid in it so I can move it around the yard until next spring when maybe I'll have a better attitude about it. At this point, I just want it out of my garage! Gene


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