W2 59' valve train help
#2673480
07/03/19 06:26 AM
07/03/19 06:26 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 115
Sydney, Australia
tuff440
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Sydney, Australia
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Guys I'm looking for some advice on piecing together the valve train for my blown pump gas small block. I will start with a description of what I'm building and what I'm trying to achieve.
Engine is based around a mopar siamese bore 4 bolt 59degree block, 3.95 bore, scat forged 3.58 crank, scat h beams with arias dished forgies. Comp should come in at 8.5-1. Heads are indy 210cc 360-2's, 2.05 and 1.6 valves, have an aussie made max wedge performance blower manifold and plan on running a 6/71 on pump gas with efi through enderle hat. For the cam, it will be either a hydraulic or solid roller street type grind. This is a street engine, not a drag motor so longevity is important. Having seen lots of photos of lifter and pushrod angles when using a w2 style heads with 59 degree blocks has prompted me to ask the following question.
What sort of things are to be considered when trying to achieve the best geometry possible.
- Height of the lifter, I'm guessing a shorter lifter will equal less angle between the lifter and pushrod.
- Rocker ratio. Will a 1.6 or 1.7 ratio give better geometry than a 1.5 ratio rocker
- Amount of offset in the rocker
- Using an offset lifter.
I am looking at bam lifters at the moment and T&D rockers, but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say. Fire away
Last edited by tuff440; 07/03/19 06:30 AM.
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: tuff440]
#2673485
07/03/19 07:29 AM
07/03/19 07:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,018
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
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Tulsa OK
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I can't add much but I can tell you what has been working for my W2 motor. My cam is a solid roller around 270@.050 and lift at the valve is around .610 IIRC. I run an old Mopar Performance lifter made by crane. Originally I ran Erson W2 rocker arms but I had one of them lose the need bearings so I moved to harland sharp rockers. I have a few thousand miles and a hundred or so passes on the HS rocker arms and they are working good. They have held up well, I recently freshened up the valve job and took the rockers off the shafts and it all looked brand new still. They did need a fair amount of shimming to get them moved on the valve tips properly. They had a decent sweep pattern but weren't centered on the valve well, but I was able to shim them around and line it up better.
I don't see how an offset lifter could hurt anything, it can't make the pushrod angle worse and it will probably lessen the lift loss to the 59" and offset rocker. I don't recall my exact number but mine loses a lot of lift on the intake.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: Bad340fish]
#2673575
07/03/19 12:45 PM
07/03/19 12:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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First off, are these econ castings, or the race castings which have the stands milled off. It makes a difference. Either way, you are working with two different geometries. One is the valve side, the other is the pushrod side.
If you have the heads with milled stands, setting the geometry on the valve side is relatively simple. And, I'm assuming you have the offset blocks and shafts. If you have the econo heads, Mike at B3 racing engines makes a kit to correct the geometry with that set up. Quick, easy and it works. You have to take some measurements and call him and he will set you up.
Again, fairly easy.
The pushrod side...there is not much you can do, as everything is essentially set for you, and can't be easily adjusted.
You have two different pushrod geometry angle issues. On the intake side, you have the rocker offset and the lifter offset. The pushrod being out of parallel in one plane is bad enough, but the 59 degree lifter bank angle makes everything worse.
I'd suggest you forget about hydraulic roller lifters. Those retro lifters have the pushrod seat so high, it aggravates the pushrod angle to the rocker. It's a disaster. I'd never do that again. Spend your money on a QUALITY roller lifter and make your life easier.
Edit: skip the offset roller lifter. It loads the rivets that holds the link bars on. Just use a QUALITY lifter, like a Crower, Crane (Pro Series ONLY not the other cheap crane lifters) or BAM, or the Isky. But they will all be close to 1k or a bit more.
Last edited by madscientist; 07/03/19 12:47 PM.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: b1dartsport]
#2673668
07/03/19 04:40 PM
07/03/19 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,705
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,705
Portage,michigan
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Couple questions
Did you swap out the intake valves to 2.05 on those heads? Because they come with 2.100 valves
Any why the tiny bore
That block should be good to around 4.200 or so. Using “ all” of it certainly wouldn't be wise, but certainly i would think having the bore well over 4 inches would be very productive?
Sorry, just curious
Last edited by B3422W5; 07/03/19 04:41 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
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Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: b1dartsport]
#2673671
07/03/19 04:48 PM
07/03/19 04:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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I have assembled 2 engines so far with resto blocks which is a 4 bolt main 59* tall deck standard bore R3 . Both engines I used Crane Ultra Pro lifters, Smith Brothers push rods, Indy 360-2 230 cc heads and the 1.6 T & D rockers made specifically for these heads. The Cam used in both is a Crane solid roller with aprox .670 effective lift with these rockers. The only correction I had to make was at the lifter bore which needed clearanced at the link bar rivets and the bore was .10 to tall for these lifters. I made all these corrections with a die grinder. The geometry and sweep was almost perfect with the roller centered on the valve right out of the box. T & D really did their homework on these rockers. One of the engines was recently freshened with over 400 runs on it and a little more than 2k street miles. The lifters and rockers showed very minimal wear. The rockers were sent to T & D to be checked and needed nothing. When I spoke to the guy at T & D and mentioned I was surprised they needed no work , He said if a valve train is set up properly he has seen some sets go through 3 engine refreshes and need no maintenance. The engine had new rings and bearings installed and is back in the car running. Another thing that surprised me was that the valve guides were still in good shape, which also is a product of good valve train geometry. The rocker kits I used are assembled on the shafts and cleared the 1.550 PAC springs with no issues. here is a link.http://tdmach.com/product/small-block-chrysler-indy-360-1360-2-head-single-shaft/ How wide was the sweep?
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: Neil]
#2673698
07/03/19 05:31 PM
07/03/19 05:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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Doesn't increasing the rocker arm ratio make the pushrods closer to the valve cover rail? I have seen used W2 heads on Ebay and on some the valve cover sealing surface has been heavily clearanced where the pushrods travel. Yes
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: madscientist]
#2673713
07/03/19 05:47 PM
07/03/19 05:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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I have assembled 2 engines so far with resto blocks which is a 4 bolt main 59* tall deck standard bore R3 . Both engines I used Crane Ultra Pro lifters, Smith Brothers push rods, Indy 360-2 230 cc heads and the 1.6 T & D rockers made specifically for these heads. The Cam used in both is a Crane solid roller with aprox .670 effective lift with these rockers. The only correction I had to make was at the lifter bore which needed clearanced at the link bar rivets and the bore was .10 to tall for these lifters. I made all these corrections with a die grinder. The geometry and sweep was almost perfect with the roller centered on the valve right out of the box. T & D really did their homework on these rockers. One of the engines was recently freshened with over 400 runs on it and a little more than 2k street miles. The lifters and rockers showed very minimal wear. The rockers were sent to T & D to be checked and needed nothing. When I spoke to the guy at T & D and mentioned I was surprised they needed no work , He said if a valve train is set up properly he has seen some sets go through 3 engine refreshes and need no maintenance. The engine had new rings and bearings installed and is back in the car running. Another thing that surprised me was that the valve guides were still in good shape, which also is a product of good valve train geometry. The rocker kits I used are assembled on the shafts and cleared the 1.550 PAC springs with no issues. here is a link.http://tdmach.com/product/small-block-chrysler-indy-360-1360-2-head-single-shaft/ How wide was the sweep? I have been looking for the folder I had for those engines (2007) but can't seem to find them. I probably gave them to the owners instead of giving them copies. But I do remember that it was so narrow that I was sort of a amazed that something built for a Mopar worked so well out of the box.
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: B3422W5]
#2673734
07/03/19 06:37 PM
07/03/19 06:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 115
Sydney, Australia
tuff440
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Sydney, Australia
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The heads were supplied as Indy's cnc ported 210cc version but I wanted a 2.05 intake valve as the original engine build was to be based on a 318 block. The exhaust ports and seats were standard indy cnc porting as were the chambers, but the intake ports and seats were supplied unfinished so that shady dell could set them up to suit the 2.05 valve, they also reworked the seats. From memory they flowed 306cfm at .600, 301cfm at .550, 298cfm at .500, 290cfm at .450 and 270cfm at .400. the exhaust ports don't flow as well as I would of thought. 179cfm at .400, 190cfm at .450, 201cfm at .500, 207cfm at .550, 214cfm at .600, 220cfm at .650 and 224cfm at .700.
Because I already had the rotating assembly I stuck with the small bore on the mopar block. I'm not after huge power, more so driveability and lots of torque.
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: tuff440]
#2673782
07/03/19 09:01 PM
07/03/19 09:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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madscientist I would have thought the lifter bore or bushings if used would be getting the side loading, don't the link bars have en-longated slots where the rivets go to allow for movement thus taking pressure off the rivet. I'm not sure of the science behind it, but the way I understand it, because the lobe and the wheel are flat, as opposed to tapered for flat lifter stuff, it actually tries to twist the lifter I'm the bore. So the load on the rivet is from twisting, not from running out of slot. IIRC, that was one of the reasons why lifter bore guided lifters were developed. On those they use offset pushrod seats. I know is some Chevrolet stuff I did we saw some issues coming running offset lifters. Just an FYI...I may not have all the details correct but I'm pretty close (I hope).
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: tuff440]
#2673829
07/03/19 10:49 PM
07/03/19 10:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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Milwaukee WI
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Offset lifters load the link bars any time the pushrod is not truly perpendicular to the lifter bore. A 59° block has the worst angular alignment of any engine I have ever seen. Offset lifters in a 59° block would be the worst application I can imagine for loading the link bars/ rivets.
Last edited by TRENDZ; 07/03/19 11:09 PM.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: W2 59' valve train help
[Re: Neil]
#2675137
07/07/19 11:24 AM
07/07/19 11:24 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 148
Albert Lea, MN
GTX5877
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Albert Lea, MN
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Doesn't increasing the rocker arm ratio make the pushrods closer to the valve cover rail? I have seen used W2 heads on Ebay and on some the valve cover sealing surface has been heavily clearanced where the pushrods travel. Just the opposite. Increasing rocker arm ratio puts the pushrod cup closer to the shaft or pivot point. When using 3/8" pushrods with 1.5 rockers are tight to the valve cover rail, 1.6 ratio will pull it away from the rail. Regarding offset lifters with 59 degree blocks, lifters or link bars will fail every time
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