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Roller Lifter Issues #2665903
06/14/19 05:03 PM
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Throwing this out there as I am at a loss as to what may be happening.

INFO: Stroked Indy aluminum block 500 cu in, Indy 440-1 heads, 871 hi helix Blower Shop Blower.
It is in a 245inch Dragster shifted at 6800 trap at 7000.

Problem is the lifters are breaking at the tie bars. The button is breaking off the lifter letting the tie bar loose, this is the 3rd set in 4 seasons, 2nd set since late last season.

Ideas??

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665904
06/14/19 05:10 PM
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Could the pushrod be getting into them when it flexes? Seems unlikely but you never know?


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665906
06/14/19 05:14 PM
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Having had a small block crack lifter bodies for no apparent reason we changed push rods and the issue didn’t reoccur.

Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665907
06/14/19 05:18 PM
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Tell us about the springs and load on the roller
wave

Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Bad340fish] #2665933
06/14/19 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Could the pushrod be getting into them when it flexes? Seems unlikely but you never know?


I'm running Manton 1/2" tapered pushrods, so don't think I'm getting much flex.

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2665935
06/14/19 06:31 PM
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Springs are Comp # 996 set at 300 seat pressure open load is right at 900 lb. This set of lifters are Comps bushed lifters.

I haven't removed the broken lifters yet as it looks like engine will have to come out and take them out from the bottom, which means that the roller is likely gone and they spread out.

Thinking about going to the 1" lifter, but hate to be down that long for machine work.

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665939
06/14/19 06:40 PM
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Off the top of my head I’d say...... you need better lifters.

But, I do have a question......
Lifter bores are dry on the Indy block unless you get the lifter oiling option........ does your block have that option?

If you’re running dry lifter bores, you’re not adequately oiling the lifters.

IMO, the Sportsman lifters(96829B-16) are going to be marginal with 900lbs open load.

If the lifter bores are dry I’d talk to Isky and see what they recommend for that application.

From what I’ve read, the H-11 style springs don’t seem to have the high rpm stability that some of the more modern stuff does.

At 7K........ you could probably run less open load too.
What’s the lift?
Is the cam anything weird?

Also, if it’s a std core size cam........ with that spring open load, the cam could be flexing, adding another variable to the valvetrain tuning...... which could be causing some strange things to occur.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665942
06/14/19 06:46 PM
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ok well
Comp Cams has pulled those lifters off the market. If it is an Indy block, was it drilled for Hyd oiling when ordered? IF not the bushings are failing due to a lack of pressurized oil. I have also seen the tie bars rub a lot on the ends of the blocks that can cause binding. With that much pushrod and spring pressure I would step it up to a 55mm or bigger cam. The cam could be deflecting under load causing some serious gyrations in the valve train. Rubbing pushrods and making sure that the pushrod has the correct ball on it to mate to the lifter cup.
Just a thought or two.
Todd

Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: fast68plymouth] #2665951
06/14/19 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Off the top of my head I’d say...... you need better lifters.

But, I do have a question......
Lifter bores are dry on the Indy block unless you get the lifter oiling option........ does your block have that option?

If you’re running dry lifter bores, you’re not adequately oiling the lifters.

IMO, the Sportsman lifters are going to be marginal with 900lbs open load.

If the lifter bores are dry I’d talk to Isky and see what they recommend for that application.

From what I’ve read, the H-11 style springs don’t seem to have the high rpm stability that some of the more modern stuff does.

At 7K........ you could probably run less open load too.
What’s the lift?
Is the cam anything weird?

Also, if it’s a std core size cam........ with that spring open load, the cam could be flexing, adding another variable to the valvetrain tuning...... which could be causing some strange things to occur.


No, I am running the dry lifter bore. Lifters always seem fine as far as lube goes, no metal transfer.
This is the first I've heard of an oiling option on this block. Heck when I ran stock blocks I always shut off the oil to the lifters as much as possible.
Cam is a Comp 4-7 swap, 116 LSA,Lobe lift is .521 I, .485 E Dur @ .050 273 I, 298 E. I'm running 1.5 rockers.

I'll talk to Isky. May as well give them a try as it looks like cam and lifters again.

Thanks
Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: sasquatch] #2665955
06/14/19 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sasquatch
ok well
Comp Cams has pulled those lifters off the market. If it is an Indy block, was it drilled for Hyd oiling when ordered? IF not the bushings are failing due to a lack of pressurized oil. I have also seen the tie bars rub a lot on the ends of the blocks that can cause binding. With that much pushrod and spring pressure I would step it up to a 55mm or bigger cam. The cam could be deflecting under load causing some serious gyrations in the valve train. Rubbing pushrods and making sure that the pushrod has the correct ball on it to mate to the lifter cup.
Just a thought or two.
Todd


Hmmm, Comp didn't mention that when I talked to them a couple of hours ago.
Not drilled for hyd lifters, I'm running solid rollers. Not rubbing on the block, and plenty of clearance on the pushrods.

Had not thought of needing pressurized oiling.

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665956
06/14/19 07:15 PM
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Find someone who can run that combination on a Spintron. Sounds like you're spending a lot of money on busted parts right now so an investment in some Spinton testing will save you money in the long run. I can't tell you what is wrong with your combo but I'm pretty sure a few minutes on a Spintron will tell you. Something is moving around and busting parts, could be anything in the valve train. The Spintron might also tell you that you either don't need those big springs and/or that you need a different cam lobe.

Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665958
06/14/19 07:24 PM
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The only bushing I can imagine holding up without pressure fed oiling are the Isky Speedway redzones...... but you should talk to them about it and be sure to tell them the lifters won’t have any oil feed to the bushings.

You might consider a little milder intake lobe as well, with a little less lift.
Just let the boost do the job.

A 273@.050 lobe that’s .521 lift has some pretty fast action.

If it’s a Comp, I’d be curious to know the lobe numbers on that cam.

I also agree with Todd about stepping up to a larger cam core if what you have is still using a std cam core.

You would really be helping out the lifter pressure angle situation, especially with that much lobe lift, by increasing both the cam core diameter and the lifter diameter(and the accompanying bigger wheel).

Obviously it’s easy to sit at the keyboard and “armchair quarterback” the situation after the damage is done...... but IMO, your exact combo........ very high lift lobe, high pressure angle, high open spring load, Sportsman lifters, no pressurized oil to lifters........ that’s a recipe for failure.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665966
06/14/19 07:54 PM
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But why is the button the weakest link? All it controls is tappet rotation, nothing to do with spring load.
Are you sure that the tie bar still has slack at the extreme end of travel in the gallery at the actual lobe positions? If the linked tappets are moved in tandem, does the link bind?


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: polyspheric] #2665970
06/14/19 08:16 PM
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I suppose another question might be.......
Are you sure the broken tie bar is the cause of the problem, or is it a casualty after the bearing fails and the wheel gets smashed?

I suppose if the high lobe lift does in fact use up all of the slot in the tie bar, it would answer that question.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: polyspheric] #2665972
06/14/19 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by polyspheric
But why is the button the weakest link? All it controls is tappet rotation, nothing to do with spring load.
Are you sure that the tie bar still has slack at the extreme end of travel in the gallery at the actual lobe positions? If the linked tappets are moved in tandem, does the link bind?


Yes, I had an issue once on a 2.0" lifter spacing once. So now it is definitely checked.

Dave


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Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: fast68plymouth] #2665973
06/14/19 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
I suppose another question might be.......
Are you sure the broken tie bar is the cause of the problem, or is it a casualty after the bearing fails and the wheel gets smashed?

I suppose if the high lobe lift does in fact use up all of the slot in the tie bar, it would answer that question.


Good question. That's one of the reasons I posted this. To pick you guy's brains.

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665975
06/14/19 08:25 PM
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I guess at this point one might ask........

How much power would you be willing to give up to make that problem go away....... or conversely....... how much would you be willing to spend to greatly reduce the chances of it happening?

I would very carefully inspect all the undamaged lifters for clues as to where the failure starts.

Thoroughly clean the lifters to get all the oil out of the bushings, and check to see if there is any discernible vertical play in them.
Look all the link bars over really good with a magnifying glass.

You might see the likely point of the original failure.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: fast68plymouth] #2665984
06/14/19 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
The only bushing I can imagine holding up without pressure fed oiling are the Isky Speedway redzones...... but you should talk to them about it and be sure to tell them the lifters won’t have any oil feed to the bushings.

You might consider a little milder intake lobe as well, with a little less lift.
Just let the boost do the job.

A 273@.050 lobe that’s .521 lift has some pretty fast action.

If it’s a Comp, I’d be curious to know the lobe numbers on that cam.

I also agree with Todd about stepping up to a larger cam core if what you have is still using a std cam core.

You would really be helping out the lifter pressure angle situation, especially with that much lobe lift, by increasing both the cam core diameter and the lifter diameter(and the accompanying bigger wheel).

Obviously it’s easy to sit at the keyboard and “armchair quarterback” the situation after the damage is done...... but IMO, your exact combo........ very high lift lobe, high pressure angle, high open spring load, Sportsman lifters, no pressurized oil to lifters........ that’s a recipe for failure.


Comps grind# 2067B/1649B R 116.0 +4.0 if that tells you anything.
This cam is spec'd after a Jones Cam with .500 lift.
I am using a standard cam core, I don't think a big cam core is in my future although 1" lifters is a possibility. But if I go that route I will likely be out for reminder of season unless I can find a machinist.

Just as a FYI if you think this is a lot of cam, my 572 NA engine once had a .950 lift pro stock cam from Koffels. I destroyed it because of improper valve lash. It was and all aluminum KB block and FSB heads and I had no idea of how much the lash changed after warming up. Lets just say it was somewhere around .050 or so. Learned a lot on that one.

By the way I've contacted Jones for another cam as his really worked well.

Thanks
Dave


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Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: fast68plymouth] #2665986
06/14/19 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
I guess at this point one might ask........

How much power would you be willing to give up to make that problem go away....... or conversely....... how much would you be willing to spend to greatly reduce the chances of it happening?

I would very carefully inspect all the undamaged lifters for clues as to where the failure starts.

Thoroughly clean the lifters to get all the oil out of the bushings, and check to see if there is any discernible vertical play in them.
Look all the link bars over really good with a magnifying glass.

You might see the likely point of the original failure.


Well since it is a bracket car I've always said consistency over ET. But we all know quick is much more fun.

I plan to do a very through inspection. So far I see no issues with the tie bars not being long enough. I have not cleaned anything yet.

Dave


Dave Covey
Re: Roller Lifter Issues [Re: Chief] #2665993
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All failures same or of different cylinders?

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