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Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update #2658540
05/23/19 08:32 PM
05/23/19 08:32 PM
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Milford, OH
markz528 Online content OP
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So the oil in my race car is showing babbitt. Time for a rebuild and upgrade. This combo has been together for 15 years. Background:

67 Coronet 3450 lbs with driver. Best run is 9.61 @ 139.2 mph

When dynoed, motor made 786 hp and 706 torque. I want to go faster, and figure I need to be around 840 hp for where I want to be.

Motor is a 2001 mega block. 528 cubic inch. 4.15 stroke and 4.5 inch bore. 14:1 compression. Hooker 5209 2” headers. Indy SR heads that were flowed and reported to be:

Head Flow @ 28inches H2O
Opening Intake Exhaust
.200 158.7 120.1
.300 220.8 170.5
.400 271.3 203.2
.500 301.4 225.7
.600 326.0 247.6
.700 345.4 262.3
.800 354.9 269.0

Cam:
Solid Roller
Lift Intake/Exhaust .706/.676
Duration @ .020 Intake/Exhaust 318/328 (285/290 @ 0.050)
Valve Timing @ 0.050
Intake 36 BTDC 68 ABDC
Exhaust 79 BBDC 31 ATDC
106 deg centerline
Lobe Separation Angle 110 degrees
cam installed @ 106 degrees (straight up)

So what do I do with the motor? I don’t want to change heads right now. Will the heads support 840 hp? I will install a new rotating assembly. Should I go with a 4.25, 4.375 or 4.5 inch stroke (541, 557 or 573 cubic inch)? I seriously doubt the SR heads will support 573 cubic inches, but what if I change heads later?

Thoughts?

Last edited by markz528; 06/14/19 10:09 AM.

67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658543
05/23/19 08:44 PM
05/23/19 08:44 PM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda Offline
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For the power you want, and bigger cubes that you might build, I think that the heads and possibly the headers are going to be your choke point. You didn't mention what you are using for an intake system.

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658547
05/23/19 08:51 PM
05/23/19 08:51 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Online content
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I’d just build it as a 572, knowing the heads are holding it back and that you’ll likely need something bigger to get into that 850hp zone.

I did one a few years ago....... it was about 870hp with a 440-2/w-4500 adapter , 1150 carb, 14:1, cnc345 Heads, 1.7 rockers, .782 lift cam.

Over 900hp with a TR.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: sgcuda] #2658550
05/23/19 09:00 PM
05/23/19 09:00 PM
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Posts: 3,576
Milford, OH
markz528 Online content OP
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Originally Posted by sgcuda
For the power you want, and bigger cubes that you might build, I think that the heads and possibly the headers are going to be your choke point. You didn't mention what you are using for an intake system.


The intake is an Indy with a 1150 cfm Dominator. I don't know anything about the intake other than its a single Dominator 4 barrel Indy.

How difficult is it to put a 4.5 inch stroke crank in a mega block? Fairly straightforward or is difficult clearance required?


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: sgcuda] #2658601
05/23/19 10:43 PM
05/23/19 10:43 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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Bigger primaries


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Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658645
05/24/19 01:53 AM
05/24/19 01:53 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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It depends on the rod journal size and type of rods used scope
Stock Mopar rod journals sizes with aluminum rods require grinding, Honda 1.88 rod size with steel rods don't shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658714
05/24/19 10:25 AM
05/24/19 10:25 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Online content
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If you use steel rods and a crank with 2.200 rod journals, it won’t require too much clearancing.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658802
05/24/19 02:22 PM
05/24/19 02:22 PM
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Western NC
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That cam sounds fine for the future if you use 1.60 or more rocker ratio when you upgrade the heads.
0.706 on 1.5 rockers would be 0.777" gross lift with 1.65 rockers and around 0.750" after subtracting lash.
It is similar to the cam I ran in my 540 CID with Indy 440-1 CNC-345 and T&D 1.65 rockers. That combo was a copy of a 860 hp setup.
Indy site says their CNC porting flows 380 cfm. Guy I copied said It made power to 7400 rpm but he shifted it at 7200. Mine was still pulling strong when I shifted at 7300.
So 528-540 CID is enough to meet your power goal (with better heads, IMO)

But if you build 572, you might go to Indy CNC 572-13 heads, or even B1 heads.

What was the RPM for peak HP of your current setup?
As Fast68 said, your SR heads will lower the peak HP and RPM if you build 572 CID.

Cam_Card_BMBB-3R.jpg

1993 Daytona, 1973 Cuda 440, 2009 Challenger 5.7 Hemi, 2015 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi 8-speed auto
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658841
05/24/19 06:18 PM
05/24/19 06:18 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I've been told by several very good heads up racers that a motor with a large bore and short stroke (less than 4.250) will make more power and accelerate faster than the same size C.I. motor with a smaller bore and a longer stroke work
My next all out motor will have a set of B1-MC heads on a Koleno high nickel 4.500 bore size block to start with and a 4.375 stroke fully counter weighted old Sonny Bryant top fuel crank due to the price and availability of them in SO CA back when I started this project realcrazy That crank was originally a 4.250 stroke crank with standard Mopar rod journals sizes that I had offset ground down to BB Chevy 2.200 size and offset ground to 4.375 stroke. I'm going to use a set of forged steel 7.100 long Molnar H beam steel rods with 2.200 big ends and .990 small ends thumbs
I would love to make a similar motor with 4.500 or bigger bore size with a 4.0 stroke crankshaft with the Honda rod journal sizes(1.880?) with a long rod up work
Do you really want to make a motor that will need to be revved between 6000 to 9000 RPM to make power work
I normally don't but this next B1-MC motor will probably be one like that shock realcrazy shruggy
High RPM, high dollar and high maintenance shock work
I dyno tested a 526 C.I. 440 bracket motor (4.380 bore with a 4.375 stroke crankshaft) that had a set of both Indy SR and 440-1 heads on it , both sets where M.W. intake sizes and both had 2.250 intake sizes, I used the same cam, intake, carb and compression ratio for both tests.
The SR heads flowed 350 CFM at .700 lift and the CNC ported 440-1 heads flowed 370 CFM at .700 on the same flow bench by the same operator, the SR made 775 HP at around 7000 RPM and the better 440-1 heads made right at 845 HP at a little higher RPM(maybe 7200 to 7400 RPM. I sold that motor and gave all the dyno sheets and flow numbers to the new owner or I could give you more accurate info, sorry blush


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2658881
05/24/19 08:25 PM
05/24/19 08:25 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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My oddball combo. 572, 15-1 (Diamond flat top), 7.100 Molnar rods and crank, Comp RX1718 int lobe/XCX1862 exh lobe (285/292) .471" lobe lift 112 lca in at 108, .800" at the valve w/o lash using a 1.7 T&D rocker, Jessel belt box stock Indy 440-25 cross ram, 2 eddy 750's, hand ported -1 w/2.25 int, 2 1/8" Hooker super comps, GZ vacuum pump. It's been 9.00@150/3350lbs. Shift at 7000. Cam is easy on valve train parts
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 05/25/19 09:30 AM.
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2658888
05/24/19 08:45 PM
05/24/19 08:45 PM
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A friend had a 572 with the small port b1ba(?) Heads, shifted at 6200, should be geared to go 6400 in the traps. I bet your SR heads on a 572 would do the same. A lot depends on how much$$ you are willing to throw at this motor to go fast. I would start with the biggest short block you can build, up to 572. Next, how much do you want to throw at the topend? If you want serious power, a jump to B1Mc or predator heads would be my choice, with B1mc's being less$ than predators , but still capable of 1050 hp.
There is only about a 50 hp difference between SRs fully ported and 440-1s fully ported, and the best valvetrain for -1s fairly costly, but you can use the same pistons as your SRs. So the crux of the matter is for serious hp increases lots more parts need to be changed. My choice would be a 572 with b1mc heads, the cam you have, new headers.

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: 440Jim] #2658932
05/24/19 11:22 PM
05/24/19 11:22 PM
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Posts: 3,576
Milford, OH
markz528 Online content OP
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Originally Posted by 440Jim

What was the RPM for peak HP of your current setup?


So peak hp was at 6600 rpm. It was very flat from 6300 to 6600, but they did not run the tests past 6600 rpm. Peak torque was at 5500 rpm.

I will be digesting all the info. Will drop the car off to pull the motor at the end of summer or early fall so I have some time to think about it. I will be at Brodix in a few weeks, so I will have a conversation with them about the B1 heads.

Can I buy bigger off the shelf headers that will fit B1 heads in a stockish 67 B body or are we talking a custom built set?


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2658947
05/25/19 01:21 AM
05/25/19 01:21 AM
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I think you can make 840 hp with SR head, especially since you're okay with running high compression and a big roller. If it was me I'd put a high quality 4.25 crank in there with 7.10 rods (high quality rods). Figure out the head situation next and then order pistons to get you in the 15:1 range. Maybe figure which gas you're willing to run first. I'd run X16 from VP if available in your area. Send the heads to Dwayne and have him go over them with a goal of 850 hp. Figure out a cam and valvetrain that supports 850 hp. Figure out how you're going to get the compression. If you can do it with a flat top piston or a very small dome then that is the way I'd go. You can get good rings in the 4.500 bore size so I'd go with a metric ring pack and gas ported pistons. Pay the extra money for the fully CNC machining on the pistons to get the weight down. Diamond can do this stuff for you. You'll need a good oil pan to make 850 hp, most likely also need a vacuum pump. The intake needs to be sent out for porting. I'd send it to Wilson but it will cost you at least $1000 for a full competition port job. No idea on your carb, You might need to buy a different carb to hit 850 hp. Maybe send your existing carb to Mark W. and see what he says. He'll most likely want to start fresh with a billet main body and build a 1250+ monster. Are you willing to run a Jesel belt drive? I'd highly recommend it if you don't already have one. A Jesel belt drive distributor is also a good idea at that power level. Everything you can do to get rid of the harmonics on the camshaft will help.

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: AndyF] #2659191
05/25/19 09:37 PM
05/25/19 09:37 PM
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Put new bearings in it and let's go racing

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: cgall] #2659208
05/25/19 10:58 PM
05/25/19 10:58 PM
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Milford, OH
markz528 Online content OP
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Originally Posted by cgall
Put new bearings in it and let's go racing


Not ready to take it apart yet. Let's go racing before I tear it apart!


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2665768
06/14/19 10:13 AM
06/14/19 10:13 AM
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markz528 Online content OP
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So it is looking like I have a plan. I was going back and forth if I should buy a Bulldog block (sell my existing motor assembled) or reuse my Megablock and now that I sold my heads and intake, I will be reusing my megablock. It only has around 140 runs on it.

Tony Bischoff (BES) will build the motor. It will be a B1 MC head, 572 CI with 15:1 compression with a new cam. Will be targeting 950 hp. If my et calculator is correct, should get me in the 9.0's in my heavy aerodynamic brick..............


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? [Re: markz528] #2665770
06/14/19 10:17 AM
06/14/19 10:17 AM
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up

I’m sure he’ll build you a nice piece!!


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2665779
06/14/19 11:10 AM
06/14/19 11:10 AM
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Sounds like a great plan 👍

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2665810
06/14/19 12:12 PM
06/14/19 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by markz528
So it is looking like I have a plan. I was going back and forth if I should buy a Bulldog block (sell my existing motor assembled) or reuse my Megablock and now that I sold my heads and intake, I will be reusing my megablock. It only has around 140 runs on it.

Tony Bischoff (BES) will build the motor. It will be a B1 MC head, 572 CI with 15:1 compression with a new cam. Will be targeting 950 hp. If my et calculator is correct, should get me in the 9.0's in my heavy aerodynamic brick..............



MY 530 made 915 @ BES, and its a dedicated nitrous motor. IM SURE yours will make over 1000, not 950


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: n20mstr] #2665824
06/14/19 12:59 PM
06/14/19 12:59 PM
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markz528 Online content OP
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Originally Posted by n20mstr


MY 530 made 915 @ BES, and its a dedicated nitrous motor. IM SURE yours will make over 1000, not 950



So you DO know Tony! grin grin grin


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 13.300 @ 101.75 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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