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Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 73cuda340] #2652080
05/05/19 06:36 AM
05/05/19 06:36 AM
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Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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As you see there is lots of gas in the thread blah
all that so called info is a lot of spent exhaust gasses
I ran AVG hopas and unleaded blended together for over 20,000 miles. The engine was an 11:1 six pak small block. No issues ever. drive\

That engine was refreshed after 20k due to bad valve springs [chinese mopar performance valve springs]and there was not one issues found from running the evil av gas
sawzall

Adding av gas to unleaded premium raises the octane of the blend. It is not necessary to run pure av gas at all.
If the car does not require it for octane it still might like a little lead in it's drink and make it run better. Every car is different
Higher octane allows more timing which typicality brings in more HP and torque. Some engines respond really well to high octane gas and more timing advance.

You have to determine the blend your car needs ie ratio of UL to AVG and stick to it.

You do not have to reset the float levels ! BUT you do need to tune the cat for the type fuel you are running
Yes dear the Air Fuel Ratios are different between fuels. Look it up!

It will not ruin your motor. Hog wash help

It is typically illegal to pump AVG directly into a car but not illegal to purchase it in gas cans and use it for whatever you need it for.

Last edited by ThermoQuad; 05/05/19 06:42 AM.
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: ThermoQuad] #2652218
05/05/19 12:32 PM
05/05/19 12:32 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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[quote=

It is typically illegal to pump AVG directly into a car but not illegal to purchase it in gas cans and use it for whatever you need it for.
[/quote]
I hope you never run into a cop that is on a mission to put law breaker into the justice system for using leaded fuel on a highway luck
The fine is $10,000.00 the last time I heard of a person being convicted for that violation, not sure about how much jail time also work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2652256
05/05/19 01:35 PM
05/05/19 01:35 PM
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Granite Bay CA
I used to hear the "Big fine" warnings from people regarding the use of the RED Farm Diesel. In construction, we'd use the red dyed Diesel fuel in forklifts. Many guys had Diesel pickups and be wary of using the Farm/Off road fuel for fear of getting stopped by the Fuzz and getting fined. The Red-Farm-Off Road fuel had no taxes on it so it was dyed to stain the fuel system....Getting caught with red dyed fuel injectors was supposed to be a big fine. I have never heard of anyone ever getting caught though.
My objection was to the lack of need for the octane.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: ThermoQuad] #2652318
05/05/19 04:40 PM
05/05/19 04:40 PM
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Posts: 25,743
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Originally Posted by ThermoQuad

It is typically illegal to pump AVG directly into a car but not illegal to purchase it in gas cans and use it for whatever you need it for.


Not legal for highway use, period.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1996-02-02/pdf/96-2231.pdf


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2652442
05/06/19 12:43 AM
05/06/19 12:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,229
Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX Offline
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While reading that article, I caught this and it kinda cracks me up.

"Second, EPA issued regulations designed to gradually reduce the content of lead in leaded gasoline, because EPA found that lead particle emissions from motor vehicles presented a significant risk of harm to the health of urban populations, especially children."

Many of us grew up in the Leaded fuel era and are reasonably normal. I teach in a local college and I can tell you first hand that this current generation is full of idiots. No Lead gas has done nothing to help the younger generations. LOL

I ran AV gas 50/50 with nolead off and on for few years because the AV gas was free. Never had a problem. Just my experience.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: IMGTX] #2652448
05/06/19 02:53 AM
05/06/19 02:53 AM
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Posts: 43,115
Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted by IMGTX
While reading that article, I caught this and it kinda cracks me up.

"Second, EPA issued regulations designed to gradually reduce the content of lead in leaded gasoline, because EPA found that lead particle emissions from motor vehicles presented a significant risk of harm to the health of urban populations, especially children."

Many of us grew up in the Leaded fuel era and are reasonably normal. I teach in a local college and I can tell you first hand that this current generation is full of idiots. No Lead gas has done nothing to help the younger generations. LOL


I wonder how much effect Cannabis has on your students work whistling stirthepot haha


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 73cuda340] #2652456
05/06/19 07:01 AM
05/06/19 07:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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Historically, Iodide was the first Octane improver found. Same stuff we used put on cuts as an antiseptic. It is still in drugstores.

MMT is still made and used in place of Tetraethyl lead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl

The Ethyl Corporation once wanted to buy a company I had some stock in back in the 1970s but the other owners turned them down. Real bad outcome for me. frown

My grandfather was put on the USA Council for Fuel Research in 1927 as the “coal guy”.
I heard many interesting stories from him in the 1960s and 70s.
CFR amongst many things invented the little engine with a variable compression ratio that is used to rate fuel Octane Number.
Back then it was a top secret military project to boost Octane rating.

One of the worst mistakes ever made was for the US Government to license and sell Germany a USA designed Tetra-Ethyl-Lead plant in the middle 1930s.

Lucky we did not also sell them a Triptane plant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptane

https://stason.org/TULARC/vehicles/gasoline-faq/10-1-The-myth-of-Triptane.html

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: ThermoQuad] #2652482
05/06/19 08:40 AM
05/06/19 08:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,354
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I ran it for years in a 12.5:1 440 w/ no problems. A friend of mine used to run it in a 13:1 BB Chevy spraying nitrous...low 5 sec 1/8 mile, ran it for years.
I currently use it in a 14:1 440.

One thing I remember coming from an airplane guy is that the most strain put on an airplane's engine is on takeoff...not at altitude.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2652491
05/06/19 09:06 AM
05/06/19 09:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by ThermoQuad

It is typically illegal to pump AVG directly into a car but not illegal to purchase it in gas cans and use it for whatever you need it for.


Not legal for highway use, period.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1996-02-02/pdf/96-2231.pdf


But you can spew all you want out of aircraft,it's still in the air or doesn't it come back down to earth ? Or,my neighbor with his Ford Power Stroke pick-up that you can't even see if you are behind him ! confused

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 62maxwgn] #2652498
05/06/19 09:25 AM
05/06/19 09:25 AM
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Howell, Michigan
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I met a fellow who has been using it for 40 years, engine has been apart for roller lifter failure only, all other components look great. mixes with premium.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 62maxwgn] #2652513
05/06/19 10:00 AM
05/06/19 10:00 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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It was the concentration of the TEL along side the roadways that was the main health issue.
So yes, if its spread out and small enough, its not a big deal. Not worth grounding aircraft over. Like everything we do - there are trade offs.
Probably the biggest deal from enforcement side will be the tax issue. If the revenuers catch a retailer selling to people who use for on road purposes without the right tax....

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: BcudaChris] #2654001
05/10/19 11:49 AM
05/10/19 11:49 AM
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Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline
The member whose name is actually Art

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Originally Posted by BcudaChris
When I was a practicing A&P in the late 80's/early 90's I was running a 10.0:1 (via milled 302 heads) 318 with headers, AFB, dual plane Wieand, 284/.484 purpleshaft. I'd run 25% 100LL with 85 unleaded (4 gallons of 100LL in a 16 gal tank). Engine really liked that with 37* (6kft) and I could bring it all in by 2500 without problems. I'd have to back off to 34 for 91 unleaded, and couldn't stand on it off the line to avoid detonation. Sure smelled good. I could fill it up with that combination for $15.

I have no performance metrics to share.

So, when I was working in a repair station on Continental and Lycoming airplane engines that ran 10LL exclusively, at 2500hr overhaul we'd knock the plug out of the crank snout and from behind the plug back to where the cranks got solid right before No.1 brg, would be packed with lead. Leather aprons, rubber gloves up to our elbows and face shields were worn while we used aluminum scrapers to literally get the lead out and it all had to go into a hazmat bin.

Lead in the blow-by mixes with the oil and through some act of physics and engineering would accumulate in that part of the crank. I was always told that there is too much lead in 100LL to run it uncut in an automotive application, and that its exclusive use (uncut) on the street would cause long term durability problems due to oil formulations and no place for the stray lead to collect, which would cause it to pack piston ring grooves as well as mucking up the PCV system.


I know I'm late to the party here, but I'll share my experience - and my advice is stick to formulas meant for automotive applications, even just store-bought additives.

When I was flying a lot, I ran a mixture with aviation 100LL (LL stands for Low Lead) in my stock '67 2bbl 383. I didn't need the octane, I wanted the lead. After about 1,000 miles I started getting detonation on hard throttle or steep uphills. Only then did I talk it over with my A&P mechanic who told me to stop immediately. He explained even "LL" aviation fuel has FAR higher lead content than automotive gas ever had. The formulations are really out of whack with what a car needs. He borescoped a couple of my cylinders and found a lot of lead deposits - which would naturally create hot spots and be prone to the detonation I was experiencing. I've never used aviation fuel since.

My lesson was if it ain't formulated for a car, don't put it in.
- Art


65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2654023
05/10/19 01:28 PM
05/10/19 01:28 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Originally Posted by 67SATisfaction
Only then did I talk it over with my A&P mechanic who told me to stop immediately. He explained even "LL" aviation fuel has FAR higher lead content than automotive gas ever had.


"TEL remains an ingredient of 100 octane avgas for piston-engine aircraft. The current formulation of 100LL (low lead, blue) aviation gasoline contains 2.12 grams of TEL per gallon, half the amount of the previous 100/130 (green) octane avgas (at 4.24 grams per gallon), but only slightly less than the 2.2 grams per gallon historically permitted in automotive leaded gasoline and substantially greater than the allowed 0.001 grams per gallon in automotive unleaded gasoline sold in the United States today."


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Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2654040
05/10/19 01:59 PM
05/10/19 01:59 PM
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Colorado front range
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BcudaChris Offline
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by 67SATisfaction
Only then did I talk it over with my A&P mechanic who told me to stop immediately. He explained even "LL" aviation fuel has FAR higher lead content than automotive gas ever had.


"TEL remains an ingredient of 100 octane avgas for piston-engine aircraft. The current formulation of 100LL (low lead, blue) aviation gasoline contains 2.12 grams of TEL per gallon, half the amount of the previous 100/130 (green) octane avgas (at 4.24 grams per gallon), but only slightly less than the 2.2 grams per gallon historically permitted in automotive leaded gasoline and substantially greater than the allowed 0.001 grams per gallon in automotive unleaded gasoline sold in the United States today."


True, but the fuel formulation is different as the fuel needs to vaporize consistently at varying temperatures and altitudes. And at least back when I was in the industry, octane was calculated differently for AVGAS (Ried Vapor Pressure v R+M/2 if memory serves). The TEL is suspended in the fuel differently in AVGAS than it was back in the days of leaded automotive gas. Also, I'm quite sure, the amount of TEL in 100LL had dropped over the years. Like the fuel, oil formulations for AV engines are quite different than automotive formulations. Air cooled crank cases are hotter and the duty cycle is more of a steady state than the constant RPM changes automotive engines see. Combustion chamber "fuel cooling" is a thing in aluminum real HEMI head combustion chambers. You can richen the mixture during operation and watch the CHT and EGT drop. TEL contributes a lot to fuel cooling in the combustion chamber. When you drain the oil out of an AC engine that is run on leaded fuel, you can see the led swirling around in the oil, when you open up the oil filter led is gooked around all over the place. I don't recall that from the days of leaded gasoline.

I imagine most of the TEL in unleaded automotive gas went out the tail pipe and not as much stayed in the engine as in an aviation application.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: BcudaChris] #2654066
05/10/19 03:05 PM
05/10/19 03:05 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Originally Posted by BcudaChris
Also, I'm quite sure, the amount of TEL in 100LL had dropped over the years. lication.


The number posted ( 2.12 grams of TEL per gallon) is current as of October, 2018


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Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2654128
05/10/19 07:19 PM
05/10/19 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340 Offline OP
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Ok thanks for the responses. I'll just play it safe and try to make a trip somewhere and stock up on non ethanol and add an octane booster to it. The closest one to me only has 90 octane non ethanol.


1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip, (JA5) Silver Frost Metallic 1973 Challenger Rallye 340 1985 W150 Power Ram prospector 1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 73cuda340] #2654146
05/10/19 08:25 PM
05/10/19 08:25 PM
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northwest USA
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NANKET Offline
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I have mixed it at the races and had no trouble. The specific gravity is much less. It does lean out the mixture so you need to jet for it depending on your mixing ratio. The float level doesn’t change for me. Never heard of that.

I know a guy that drag races with it full strength and he says everything works fine. He has won a few track championships.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: NANKET] #2654157
05/10/19 08:39 PM
05/10/19 08:39 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
Tempest Offline
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Nashville, Tennessee
The bottom line is, unless your motor "needs" more octane to prevent detonation, it will not make more power. Most (unless they built their own motor) don't know the "true" mechanical compression ratio. It's typically less than you think when you calculate ring land, deck height and valve reliefs.

Last edited by Tempest; 05/10/19 08:40 PM.
Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: 73cuda340] #2654219
05/11/19 12:51 AM
05/11/19 12:51 AM
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DuPont, Washington
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DZJim Offline
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Originally Posted by 73cuda340
Are there any issues with running airplane gas in cars? There is a small airport by me that sells 100 octane airplane fuel that is ethanol free. This is the only ethanol free gas that I can find locally . Would this cause any issues with the motor, carburetors or fuel pump?


Don't get caught evading tax! You do not want to come to the attention of the taxman...EVER! For any reason. They don't sleep and they don't forget, and very, very rarely do they forgive.

Re: Airplane gas use in car, any issues? [Re: DZJim] #2654301
05/11/19 11:33 AM
05/11/19 11:33 AM
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Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Bitopia
Originally Posted by DZJim
Originally Posted by 73cuda340
Are there any issues with running airplane gas in cars? There is a small airport by me that sells 100 octane airplane fuel that is ethanol free. This is the only ethanol free gas that I can find locally . Would this cause any issues with the motor, carburetors or fuel pump?


Don't get caught evading tax! You do not want to come to the attention of the taxman...EVER! For any reason. They don't sleep and they don't forget, and very, very rarely do they forgive.


Another member here mentioned never heard of anyone getting caught. We had a Fair ride concession get caught using his red dye diesel generator fuel in his OTR transport tractors, got a $50K fine, nobody likes to advertise getting caught I suspect.

OT, I have used the same portable transfer pump for both fuels, and wonder what contamination between fuels would constitute a violation, since there is often some residual amount of fuel left in the pumps filter/lines.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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