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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: 4406bbl] #2652830
05/07/19 04:16 AM
05/07/19 04:16 AM
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You really need to know if it does this in neutral. You say the vibration is also there in 2nd at the same rpm, just not as bad. An out of balance crankshaft will have the vibration travel all the way down the driveline. Since the driveshaft is spinning at a different rate in 2nd the frequencies and harmonics are going to be different. Check it in neutral and let us know.


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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2652835
05/07/19 06:24 AM
05/07/19 06:24 AM
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Dumb question, but is your driveshaft the correct length? I had a vibration and took it to two shops before a third said it was the driveshaft because it was too short. New driveshaft fixed it. The old driveshaft was tested and was good, just short.

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: RapidRobert] #2652947
05/07/19 12:04 PM
05/07/19 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RapidRobert
Quote
My Dart has this also has a bit of in and out 'phasing' rumble when cruising at the same speed at lower speeds.
I had that once & it was the yoke was not far enough into the trans. I got the right shaft that was 1" longer & that took care of it.


The timing of this thread is uncanny. I just swapped axles from an 8.75" to a D60 and had to have a new drive shaft made to accommodate larger u-joints. Before the swap I had been chasing a pulsation in the drive line for years. Had the shaft checked for balance twice and verified the pinion angle both by myself and by a ringer. First trip with the new axle I immediately noticed the pulse was gone. New axle is installed at the exact same angle. Believing the old shaft is in balance the only other thing it could be was that is wasn't long enough.

When I was measuring to see if I could use the old shaft with the D60 there was 13/16" of travel from where it was resting in yoke on the axle to bottoming out in the transmission. Whatever the difference is between an 8.75" and a D60 plus the 13/16" is the travel it had before. New setup has about 3/4" worth of travel so a lot more engagement.

With the rear suspension at ride height how far will the slip yoke slide into the transmission before bottoming out?


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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: MarkZ] #2652951
05/07/19 12:14 PM
05/07/19 12:14 PM
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That's why the MP method of determining driveshaft length is better than the old put it in, pull it out 3/4" and measure that C/C.

Don't forget the yokes need to be 90° offset to each other.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Supercuda] #2652970
05/07/19 12:50 PM
05/07/19 12:50 PM
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& install (clock) the joints so the zerk is under compression


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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Supercuda] #2652977
05/07/19 01:21 PM
05/07/19 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Supercuda
That's why the MP method of determining driveshaft length is better



Can you elaborate? What is the “MP” method?

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: BDW] #2652982
05/07/19 01:33 PM
05/07/19 01:33 PM
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The method in the Mopar Performance, formerly Direct Connection, chassis book.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Supercuda] #2653005
05/07/19 02:25 PM
05/07/19 02:25 PM
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I have a friend who knows his Mopar stuff. He insists that much of what is described here Is transmission yoke play within tailshaft housing. Bushing has too much clearance over yoke. He has invented a tool that permits you to remove and replace this bushing while trans remains in car.

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2653026
05/07/19 03:08 PM
05/07/19 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sxrxrnr
I have a friend who knows his Mopar stuff. He insists that much of what is described here Is transmission yoke play within tailshaft housing. Bushing has too much clearance over yoke. He has invented a tool that permits you to remove and replace this bushing while trans remains in car.


I also wondered about that, but most say they have never heard of that bushing causing a vibration..i don't know what to think at this point. Can you ask him a way to check this? The shaft doesn't move much, not much play..

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: mopower440] #2653040
05/07/19 03:36 PM
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He has told me that must not move at all,,,I recall him saying like 8 thousandths clearance. I have sent him a copy of this thread via email. If he responds I will post it. Not sure if he is on this forum.

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2653042
05/07/19 03:41 PM
05/07/19 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sxrxrnr
He has told me that must not move at all,,,I recall him saying like 8 thousandths clearance. I have sent him a copy of this thread via email. If he responds I will post it. Not sure if he is on this forum.


Very much appreciated!

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: mopower440] #2653063
05/07/19 04:55 PM
05/07/19 04:55 PM
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Awesome. Just ignore the questions about whether the vibration is there in neutral at that rpm.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2653068
05/07/19 05:06 PM
05/07/19 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Awesome. Just ignore the questions about whether the vibration is there in neutral at that rpm.


Sorry, wasn't ignoring you, no its not doing it in neutral at all, Totally normal there..

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: mopower440] #2653083
05/07/19 05:42 PM
05/07/19 05:42 PM
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The fact that you say it does it at the same rpm in 2nd gear as it does in third tells me it may be more rpm related rather than speed related. The driveline is going to be rotating at a different rpm in each gear. Is it a half frequency? I don't know but what I do know is you may have several issues since this is not an oem configuration.

You also say it didn't do this before. Is it possible you just didn't notice it before? If not then something has changed. The driveshaft length didn't change, the output bushing didn't suddenly change nor did the driveshaft balance unless it lost a weight.

This is how you need to approach it. What could have possibly changed.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Guitar Jones] #2653104
05/07/19 06:52 PM
05/07/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
The fact that you say it does it at the same rpm in 2nd gear as it does in third tells me it may be more rpm related rather than speed related. The driveline is going to be rotating at a different rpm in each gear. Is it a half frequency? I don't know but what I do know is you may have several issues since this is not an oem configuration.

You also say it didn't do this before. Is it possible you just didn't notice it before? If not then something has changed. The driveshaft length didn't change, the output bushing didn't suddenly change nor did the driveshaft balance unless it lost a weight.

This is how you need to approach it. What could have possibly changed.


I agree, that what i keep racking my brain over and over is what could have changed when i did the front end rebuild..I just can come up with anything..When its in 2nd, its not near as harsh or noticeable and its more steady, but as soon as it changes into 3rd, i really feel it and it pulsates like crazy.Almost like your cruising down the road, then swerve over on the rumble strips, then back onto the road, then back onto the rumble strips..Im quite sure it wasnt there before..i would have remembered this! The first time i drove it after the frontened rebuild i remember saying 'what the heck'?

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2653111
05/07/19 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sxrxrnr
I have a friend who knows his Mopar stuff. He insists that much of what is described here Is transmission yoke play within tailshaft housing. Bushing has too much clearance over yoke. He has invented a tool that permits you to remove and replace this bushing while trans remains in car.


Thats the only think I still have to dig up to on my car and I hope will be that!

Watching this thread!


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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: NachoRT74] #2653163
05/07/19 09:24 PM
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Ok, here it is. I sent Alex a link to this thread which he reviewed, to my friend and fellow Mopar follower. This a copy and paste of our conversation. He is not a member of this forum. As I recall we went thru this a couple or more years ago on this forum on this same topic It is an excellent and thoughtful analysis and presentation. I have edited out contact info for privacy.



Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: Alex Lobodovsky <sertecturbo@
Date: May 7, 2019 at 1:38:28 PM PDT
To: Roger Schaaf
Subject: Re: pulsating driveline vibration? - Moparts Forums

Yep. If I ever get set back up I'll be offering busing replacement kits. Yep, out of the MB and it was a brutal 2 month move. 10 flatbead trailer loads plus 3-4 box trailer and whatever I got in the truck and Durnago each trip. I'm in Oakland now camped out with a bunch of cool rolling stock. Still need to set up shop but I'm not out on the rain and didn't have to sell my tolls on CL. You are certainly welcome just give me a call or text 925 200 xxxxx Great Mex place 2 blocks away.


I'll be happy to add to this topic and you can post.

The driveline vibration, pulsation or what I call grumble sound that is often referenced is typically found during no load situations. Driving at least 40 MPH and taking your foot off the gas to "float" the driveline - where no rotational force is applied during acceleration or decelleration - is when the grumble happens. I would personally like to make amends to every driveshaft shop that got yelled at for not properly balancing a driveshaft and suggest there is another factor even beyond basic driveline angles that can sour the relationship between owner, car and driveshaft shop. And to go even deeper into the rabbit hole this is a MoPar problem as I will explain next.

In a nutshell, the tailshaft bushing should have no perceptible motion up and down (wiggle). The bushing fit should be on the order of a bearing clearance or maybe a bit looser like .005". The Chrysler designed transmissions have a very long tailshaft and by nature there is more shaft between the rear tranny bearing and the slip yoke compared to a GM for example. More shaft past the rear tranny bearing means tailshaft bushing clearance becomes more important to provide proper support. I have proven this point by making an extraction tool to remove the bushing while in the car and installing a new bushing that I made from bronze. The result was night and day and all my grumble noise is gone. Also note that slip yokes are no longer on size from what I have found measuring the non worn part of original yokes vs. new. Also it's possible over the years bushings evolved to oversized. And with the yoke being undersized this is a tolerance stack up that is not in our favor.

The spline itself is important and serves as a self aligning feature (can't recall the term for this) but essentially under load the torque locks up the slip yoke to the shaft essentially resulting in minimal runout but that still does not justify a loose bushing. The importance of the busing fit is dependent how well the main shaft is supported in the transmission, which has more to do with the transmission design than anything else. GM perhaps is more forgiving but Chrysler no way. Even Jaime Passon told me that the tailshaft bushing is reamed in place at the factory indicating to me that this is an important tolerance. I write this based on my personal experience from measuring the play then creating a way to change the bushing without removing the transmission then backing up with more testing. My proof is in the results.

After all other attempts have failed to produce a quiet driveline I offer the icing on the cake - a service to blueprint the yoke to tailhsaft for that last and final step in a quiet driveline.

Alex L.




Alex Lobodovsky
President
Sertec, Inc


On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 11:44 AM Roger Schaaf <rogerlschaaf@ wrote:
Right up your alley again.

By the way, if you will be at June GGY’s event, Ryan and I have set up a show within a show.

GGY’s has given us one of their 3 buildings,,,one one the far left when you are standing in swap meet,,,for a Mopar only car event.

We have signed up our limit of 25 cars,,,,most all of which are very fine examples. If at the June event, stop by for a look see

Where is your home base now. I had heard you were out of the missle base location. That had to have been one hell of a move out.


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2653005.html#Post2653005


Roger


Sent from my iPad

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2653172
05/07/19 09:45 PM
05/07/19 09:45 PM
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[quote=Sxrxrnr]Ok, here it is. I sent Alex a link to this thread which he reviewed, to my friend and fellow Mopar follower. This a copy and paste of our conversation. He is not a member of this forum. As I recall we went thru this a couple or more years ago on this forum on this same topic It is an excellent and thoughtful analysis and presentation. I have edited out contact info for privacy.



Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: Alex Lobodovsky <sertecturbo@
Date: May 7, 2019 at 1:38:28 PM PDT
To: Roger Schaaf
Subject: Re: pulsating driveline vibration? - Moparts Forums

Yep. If I ever get set back up I'll be offering busing replacement kits. Yep, out of the MB and it was a brutal 2 month move. 10 flatbead trailer loads plus 3-4 box trailer and whatever I got in the truck and Durnago each trip. I'm in Oakland now camped out with a bunch of cool rolling stock. Still need to set up shop but I'm not out on the rain and didn't have to sell my tolls on CL. You are certainly welcome just give me a call or text 925 200 xxxxx Great Mex place 2 blocks away.


I'll be happy to add to this topic and you can post.

The driveline vibration, pulsation or what I call grumble sound that is often referenced is typically found during no load situations. Driving at least 40 MPH and taking your foot off the gas to "float" the driveline - where no rotational force is applied during acceleration or decelleration - is when the grumble happens. I would personally like to make amends to every driveshaft shop that got yelled at for not properly balancing a driveshaft and suggest there is another factor even beyond basic driveline angles that can sour the relationship between owner, car and driveshaft shop. And to go even deeper into the rabbit hole this is a MoPar problem as I will explain next.

In a nutshell, the tailshaft bushing should have no perceptible motion up and down (wiggle). The bushing fit should be on the order of a bearing clearance or maybe a bit looser like .005". The Chrysler designed transmissions have a very long tailshaft and by nature there is more shaft between the rear tranny bearing and the slip yoke compared to a GM for example. More shaft past the rear tranny bearing means tailshaft bushing clearance becomes more important to provide proper support. I have proven this point by making an extraction tool to remove the bushing while in the car and installing a new bushing that I made from bronze. The result was night and day and all my grumble noise is gone. Also note that slip yokes are no longer on size from what I have found measuring the non worn part of original yokes vs. new. Also it's possible over the years bushings evolved to oversized. And with the yoke being undersized this is a tolerance stack up that is not in our favor.

The spline itself is important and serves as a self aligning feature (can't recall the term for this) but essentially under load the torque locks up the slip yoke to the shaft essentially resulting in minimal runout but that still does not justify a loose bushing. The importance of the busing fit is dependent how well the main shaft is supported in the transmission, which has more to do with the transmission design than anything else. GM perhaps is more forgiving but Chrysler no way. Even Jaime Passon told me that the tailshaft bushing is reamed in place at the factory indicating to me that this is an important tolerance. I write this based on my personal experience from measuring the play then creating a way to change the bushing without removing the transmission then backing up with more testing. My proof is in the results.

After all other attempts have failed to produce a quiet driveline I offer the icing on the cake - a service to blueprint the yoke to tailhsaft for that last and final step in a quiet driveline.

Alex L.




Alex Lobodovsky
President
Sertec, Inc


On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 11:44 AM Roger Schaaf <rogerlschaaf@ wrote:
Right up your alley again.

By the way, if you will be at June GGY’s event, Ryan and I have set up a show within a show.

GGY’s has given us one of their 3 buildings,,,one one the far left when you are standing in swap meet,,,for a Mopar only car event.

We have signed up our limit of 25 cars,,,,most all of which are very fine examples. If at the June event, stop by for a look see

Where is your home base now. I had heard you were out of the missle base location. That had to have been one hell of a move out.


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2653005.html#Post2653005


Roger



It all makes sense, but where he says it does it with no load..mine does it when holding the throttle at a cruise with some load and even with a lot of load..ANyone know the steps to replace this bushing?

Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: mopower440] #2653200
05/07/19 10:22 PM
05/07/19 10:22 PM
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pretty sure you would need to pull the ext housing to R&R that bushing. EDIT as you know I would confirm angle/out of round/end play, all good first.

Last edited by RapidRobert; 05/07/19 10:30 PM.

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Re: pulsating driveline vibration? [Re: mopower440] #2653208
05/07/19 10:40 PM
05/07/19 10:40 PM
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Without Alex’s tool or another if they exist, you must remove transmission and then tail shaft. Then must hone a bushing to some some .005 inch clearance. Likely with tail spline dead center in bushing.
I am not a machinist, but that is the general idea.

As for your assertion regarding load at cruise, perhaps you have a different problem.

I recall as a kid I had a 53 Olds with a .30 over 394 63 Olds engine with a LaSalle 3 speed and hurst shifter. Ran great, gave all the local Chevy, Ford and Pontiac street racers fits. Built by Speedway Motors in my hometown of Lincoln, Nebraska. Great bunch of guys in those days in the 60’s.

Had this very weird vibration and had broken several rear U Joints. One day while changing yet another with the rear wheels hanging free to rotate, while under the car, driveshaft out, I had my buddy spin a rear tire.

Only then did I notice the pinion yoke was turning in an ellipse and not a circle. Yea, guess I tweaked it a bit when blowing the initial U Joint. What did I as a 21 year old kid know about this stuff.

Perhaps under car in gear, engine running have a look see that everything is turning in a perfect circle.

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