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440 Source Rocker Failure #2652524
05/06/19 10:35 AM
05/06/19 10:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
6
67Satty Offline OP
pro stock
67Satty  Offline OP
pro stock
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
Heard a ticking sound on the drive back from racing at Barona the other weekend and thought it was just an exhaust leak from the gaskets from the cutouts. Replaced the gaskets and the ticking didn't go away so I pulled the driver's side valve cover and saw the the pin holding the roller tip on the cylinder #7 intake rocker had broken off, the roller tip was missing and the top of the valve stem was just hammering into the rocker leaving a nice ding:

Luckily it didn't drop a valve and I found all the missing pieces in the top of my cylinder head. I still have to take the rocker off and see if my retainer took a beating.

This happening with a mild hydraulic cam with valve spring pressures of only 130/300, no over revving, never revved much past 5,000 rpm. They lasted about 3,000 street miles and over 130 1/8 mile passes with no indication of trouble before this. My last pass of the day was within a few hundreths of a second of my best pass ever. Then on the drive home the pin broke and let go.

I could just replace the one bad rocker for $25 and be on my way but I don't have a good feeling about running these rockers anymore.

My choices have boiled down to finding a set of used ductile iron rockers from Crane or Isky (around $300) or buying a set of new Crane ductile iron rockers from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-64770-16

At a cost of $470 the Cranes from Summit don't come with shafts, hold downs, or spacers so I'd have to piece together that stuff and add it to the total cost.

I'm also thinking of these re-branded sets that Mancini Racing sells that are made by Harland Sharp that come with everything for $511 and are available in both 1.5 and 1.6 ratios:

https://www.manciniracing.com/b15alrowibih.html

What do you guys think?

Also, which one of these do you think I'd have a better chance of being able to use my current pushrods because they will still be the correct length needed?

Thinking about going to a 1.6 ratio if I end up getting the Mancini set because I'm thinking of upgrading from my stock iron 452s to E Streets and a 1.6 ratio would give my .534 lift cam .569 lift which might take a little better advantage of the better flowing heads.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Last edited by 67Satty; 05/06/19 10:36 AM.
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652531
05/06/19 10:56 AM
05/06/19 10:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,221
Between a rock & a hard place
C
cudadoug Offline
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Between a rock & a hard place
Glad you caught it before it got bad!

Can't you use the shafts and hold down that you have now with the ductile rockers? I am a fan in an application like yours; they should be bullet proof. As for the spacers, just use the OE springs and you'll be fine.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: cudadoug] #2652543
05/06/19 11:10 AM
05/06/19 11:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
B
BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
BradH  Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
The odds of being able to reuse pushrods spec'd for a different brand of rocker are slim and none. Not saying that it can't happen, but budget for new ones, regardless.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652557
05/06/19 11:26 AM
05/06/19 11:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,576
Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Washington
If you are breaking a rocker with what you have that is 100% a geometry issue. There is no reason an almost stock rocker wouldn't take what you are doing.

Rockers almost never fail with what you are doing. There is a possibility it was a rocker failure but I seriously doubt it.

Again, as I've said so many times, if you did not use the B3 geometry correction kit your geometry is wrong. Call Mike at B3 racing engines and talk with him before you spend a bunch of money on crap you don't need, and once you do spend it, you'll still need to call him and get his kit.

Pay him now, or continue to break stuff later. Or, you'll just have a miserable valve train. Why that is acceptable to Chrysler people I have no idea.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: madscientist] #2652585
05/06/19 12:16 PM
05/06/19 12:16 PM
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Porter67 Offline
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If you are breaking a rocker with what you have that is 100% a geometry issue.

No id rather question the not so high quality 440 source china rockers at $229 a set.

Just use a good quality rocker.

Not everyone needs B3 spacers and shims, some who use quality rockers and set them up semi well never ever break a rocker or wear parts.




Originally Posted by madscientist
If you are breaking a rocker with what you have that is 100% a geometry issue. There is no reason an almost stock rocker wouldn't take what you are doing.

Rockers almost never fail with what you are doing. There is a possibility it was a rocker failure but I seriously doubt it.

Again, as I've said so many times, if you did not use the B3 geometry correction kit your geometry is wrong. Call Mike at B3 racing engines and talk with him before you spend a bunch of money on crap you don't need, and once you do spend it, you'll still need to call him and get his kit.

Pay him now, or continue to break stuff later. Or, you'll just have a miserable valve train. Why that is acceptable to Chrysler people I have no idea.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652589
05/06/19 12:21 PM
05/06/19 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,049
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,049
So. Burlington, Vt.
I have very little faith in Chinese rockers, and just don’t use them.

As for the ductile rockers......$470?? Not happening.
I think there are a couple posts over on fbbo about some issues with some recently purchased sets of those.
Might be worth a search.

My two “go to” rockers for that type of application are the Mancini H/S rockers or the Comp Ultra Pros.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: fast68plymouth] #2652615
05/06/19 01:26 PM
05/06/19 01:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
6
67Satty Offline OP
pro stock
67Satty  Offline OP
pro stock
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
Thanks for all the advice so far.

I'm leaning towards the Mancini--badged Harlan Sharp set at this point. Still pondering a switch to 1.6 ratio.

I found this in a previous thread about the 440 Source Rockers (sounds exactly like what happened with me):

"The issue with the alum. body offshore rockers was the spindle the roller tips turns on is brittle and is breaking. Once broken the rocker body design can/will push on the retainer and pop the valve locks off the valve, the valve drops into the cylinder and one can guess the rest."

At least I didn't drop a valve.

Last edited by 67Satty; 05/06/19 01:27 PM.
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652630
05/06/19 01:58 PM
05/06/19 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,460
USA
H
hudsonhornet7x Offline
pro stock
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Posts: 1,460
USA
In the marketplace here someone had a set of 440 Max rockers for sale. Those have always been my personal favorite and they are made by Rocker Arm Specialists.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: hudsonhornet7x] #2652646
05/06/19 02:57 PM
05/06/19 02:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,714
usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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usa
i'm currently using crane iron on one engine I drive and have used several sets thru the years. the other engine I drive on has the old crane gold roller tips. I can tell you from experience the alum roller tip is overall better. geometry is much easier to set up with a roller tip. you just bought a low end rocker and they are what they are. the irons won't break but the tips and fulcrums go to crap, sometimes too soon. also if your looking at a ratio upgrade be very careful of retainer to guide clearance with those '452's.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652649
05/06/19 03:08 PM
05/06/19 03:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,054
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,054
Oregon
Cheap rocker arms cost more in the long run. I learned this lesson the hard way myself. I might have even learned this lesson several times...........

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652660
05/06/19 03:38 PM
05/06/19 03:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,284
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

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Posts: 17,284
S.E. Michigan
With 300lbs open and a 5000 rpm redline...I'm going to be one the guy who asks...do you have any stamped rockers in good condition laying around?
Can you just put those on and run them.
As long as there is no coil bind, retainer to guide interference, restricted oil flow or other weirdness, I don't know why they wouldn't hold up for you.

If you want adjustable I would probably stop at the first level...Crane ductile or preferably the Isky hard pads if you can find any.

If you wanted a bigger upgrade with roller tips, I really like the steel rockers Comp sells.

Personally I am not sold on aluminum for a street engine....



Rich H.





Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: AndyF] #2652661
05/06/19 03:40 PM
05/06/19 03:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,594
Pattison Texas
csk Offline
master
csk  Offline
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Posts: 2,594
Pattison Texas
I had 440 source rockers on my 512, a few 1/4 passes & 5k hard street miles, 155 seat,390lb, held up great, but I changed them anyhow, went with T&D, the source rockers dont oil the roller tip, they only get oil splash, others & I know T&D has an oil hole to lube the roller tip & cool the valve springs. I also used the B3 racing correction spacers with the T&D's got the rockers from Dwayne Porter, so far so good .


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 67Satty] #2652799
05/06/19 11:04 PM
05/06/19 11:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 257
Way North Idaho
1
1KoolBee Offline
enthusiast
1KoolBee  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 257
Way North Idaho
At nearly $500 a set for irons, I'd say just bite the bullet and go a few hundred more for Harland Sharps. Get the edelbrock versions if you go with Eddy heads, they will save you lots of geometry headaches. Shanon's usually has the best deal.


'68 Bee 383/TF/Factory Air...high school sweetheart
'67 GTX Clone project,500 six pack,Hemi4-speed,Dana
05 Dodge Viper, 505 V-10, 6-speed Tremec
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 1KoolBee] #2652810
05/06/19 11:41 PM
05/06/19 11:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,375
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dogdays Offline
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dogdays  Offline
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Yup, I didn't feel comfortable with my Dodge Dart, I bought a Mercedes. Works great! Just like comparing 440Source rockers with T&D.
Catalog shopping I am flat FLOORED at the prices of even the medium class rockers!
R.

Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: 1KoolBee] #2652811
05/06/19 11:43 PM
05/06/19 11:43 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 11,955
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 11,955
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
I can say I have killed a bunch of these. We run a bunch of cam in our strokers and if they are aligned and shimmed ok, they usually last at least the season. But they do require some inspection now and again at .680 lift.

Recently I switched to a 400 stroker, with the same EZ1 heads, and they are not the right offset for this combo. I wrecked a lot of them real quick. Alignment needs to be right on with the lift and springs we run. If the push rods are real close to anything, its not good.

I have switched to Comp Stainless, and found they align a lot better on my current combo....

For most mild applications, if they get the pushrods in the center of the holes, you should be fine. They do not like big angles on the pushrods. Spend the time to shim them right. If they dont line up well after that, you really need to go a different route.


'70 Cuda,...605 Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown Hemi Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: 440 Source Rocker Failure [Re: dogdays] #2652818
05/07/19 12:29 AM
05/07/19 12:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,594
Pattison Texas
csk Offline
master
csk  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,594
Pattison Texas
Originally Posted by dogdays
Yup, I didn't feel comfortable with my Dodge Dart, I bought a Mercedes. Works great! Just like comparing 440Source rockers with T&D.
Catalog shopping I am flat FLOORED at the prices of even the medium class rockers!
R.


You dont know what all I went through with valve train problems, you can keep your BS statements to yourself


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392







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