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Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MileHighDart] #2646494
04/18/19 02:46 PM
04/18/19 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by MileHighDart
Well, i can add a little info to this conversation.

I just installed a borgeson box in my '68 Dart

I decided to pull the trigger on this because of the slop in my original box, and the leaking became a big problem..

Purchased a unit from BAC, seems to be the newer style, its a one piece casting, meaning it doesn't have anything welded to it.
It is smaller and lighter, but I still had to bang on my headers in a new spot to get clearance for the Borgeson unit, (dougs headers).
Install went well enough, I used BAC's coupler. New box has absolutely no play in the center like my old box, it has a nice feel, nice and firm.
No slop, no leaks. Also installed a new Moog pitman arm when I did the box cause its the only component in front end that I had not replaced or upgraded yet.

The problem I'm having is the steering wont return to center by itself after turning. It returns somewhat, but slowly, and not all the way to center.
You still have to straighten up by turning the wheel back to center yourself. Kind of annoying to say the least.
BAC told me I probably didnt have enough caster. So I went though my alignment last sunday. When I first checked I had 3 degrees of caster. After some adjusting I managed to get 6 degree, thanks to my QA1 upper arms. Old box return to center great with 3 degrees.
But adding more caster didn't fix the issue. Maybe slightly better.
Sent an email directly to Borgeson, They suggested backing off the adjustment on the top of the box 1/4 turn and see if that fixes it.

Nope, tried 1/4 turn, and then another 1/4 turn, but the problem persists.
Just sent an email back to Borgeson again telling them the adjustment didn't work. We'll see what they say.



Welcome to the world of Borgeson close engineering where 90% is good enough. Next thing you'll hear is we've sold hundreds of these and you're the only one having a problem (we really do need a BS smilie) shake_head

Similar experience/ problems with Eddie Motorsports on their S Drive serpentine BB conversion.

Maybe I'm the one's thats wrong in expecting the "kits" to work without a bunch of hair pulling BS

twocents


Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: TJP] #2646581
04/18/19 06:59 PM
04/18/19 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,895
Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
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Posts: 11,895
Benton, IL.
iagree This kind of BS where parts don't fit, is one of the key reasons why I probably won't do another project. I swear, everything is at best only 80% or 90% correct. If it will even work at all. tsk


Master, again and still
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: krautrock] #2646684
04/19/19 01:54 AM
04/19/19 01:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
MileHighDart Offline
master
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Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
Originally Posted by krautrock
is it the photo or is there a bit of an angle at the coupler in the steering shaft?


Yes there is actually quite an angle difference between the shaft coming out of the box, and the steering column shaft
I emailed Bergman auto craft about this, his answer was that because the box is smaller
Than the original the angle is necessary, and his coupler is designed to handle the angle.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MileHighDart] #2646830
04/19/19 12:57 PM
04/19/19 12:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,440
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
pro stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,440
NW Chicago suburban area
I've been tempted to purchase and install ... and try the Borgenson box (and get it through BAC with their coupler, hoses, etc), primarily interested in the reduced weight (~10 lbs?)... but the ratio is only stated at ~14:1... whereas the T/A box with fast ratio long pitman arm (and the C-body longer idler arm... aka "fast ratio matching idler arm)... seems to be the faster setup for quickest steering response. I had my T/A box recently rebuilt by Firm Feel (Stage 3)... still to drive the car as its waiting for the new SB engine.

I've always wondered IF the longer "fast ratio" pitman arm would work with the Borgenson box... and what the ratio would become.. and the resulting steering effect. I want the fastest steering response. (Using a smaller diameter steering wheel also helps.... I use an 11.5" thick deep-dish padded wheel... works great!)


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2646879
04/19/19 03:36 PM
04/19/19 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Posts: 30,947
Oregon
The fast ratio arms are quoted as changing the rato by 75% so 14:1 would turn into 10.50. I've never done it myself but that is what the math says. I think the fast ratio Pittman arm is available in both large and small sector.

I'm in the process of sorting out a Borgeson box for my '65 Coronet so I'm following along on this thread.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2646911
04/19/19 05:24 PM
04/19/19 05:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

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Granite Bay CA
It seems to me that anything "faster" than 12 to 1 might be too twitchy, maybe even too much steering effort?

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2647558
04/21/19 01:10 PM
04/21/19 01:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
1
1Fast340 Offline
master
1Fast340  Offline
master
1

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
Originally Posted by Mopar Mitch
I've been tempted to purchase and install ... and try the Borgenson box (and get it through BAC with their coupler, hoses, etc), primarily interested in the reduced weight (~10 lbs?)... but the ratio is only stated at ~14:1... whereas the T/A box with fast ratio long pitman arm (and the C-body longer idler arm... aka "fast ratio matching idler arm)... seems to be the faster setup for quickest steering response. I had my T/A box recently rebuilt by Firm Feel (Stage 3)... still to drive the car as its waiting for the new SB engine.

I've always wondered IF the longer "fast ratio" pitman arm would work with the Borgenson box... and what the ratio would become.. and the resulting steering effect. I want the fastest steering response. (Using a smaller diameter steering wheel also helps.... I use an 11.5" thick deep-dish padded wheel... works great!)


Ok i will admit right a way that i dont have any experience with the Borgeson box.the fast ratio pitman arm or a firm feel box for that mather,but i will throw in a few thoughts from an outside osberver anyway,
The longer idler arm and pitmanarm will push your steering linkage rearwards and may create interference with your headers/exhaustpipes just one of those things that may be good to keep an eye on.
Also i dont know how those firm feel boxes "feel" but just getting away from that big "dead" spot around center that most stock boxes has should be a great advantage from the borgesonboxes from what i undertsand.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: 1Fast340] #2647578
04/21/19 03:23 PM
04/21/19 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline
master
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master

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Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
I've been daily driving my (1st gen) Borgeson P/S-box for about 6 years already with great pleasure.
Recently had the car on a circuit too which was great fun.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2647628
04/21/19 08:34 PM
04/21/19 08:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
I Win
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Oregon
Sounds great, good to know you are enjoying it. I'm still rounding up the parts for my conversion. I was going to use the Saginaw pump but now I'm considering going with a late model Type II pump instead. I suppose if I'm going to make it modern I should go ahead and make it modern.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2647643
04/21/19 09:31 PM
04/21/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
71TA Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
I've considered this conversion too. Glad yo're doing it Andy. Be sure to make more than one set of pump brackets smile


www.DetroitMuscleTechnologies.com Mopar body and heater box restoration gaskets
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2647644
04/21/19 09:33 PM
04/21/19 09:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Posts: 25,050
Texas
Originally Posted by AndyF
Sounds great, good to know you are enjoying it. I'm still rounding up the parts for my conversion. I was going to use the Saginaw pump but now I'm considering going with a late model Type II pump instead. I suppose if I'm going to make it modern I should go ahead and make it modern.


I've had my share of issues with a Type II pump, but they now seem to be resolved. I ended up going through one generic Speedway motors pump, one junk parts store pump before landing my PSC Motorsports pump that seems to be getting the job done. They are quite particular about their fluid, I use the recommended AC Delco power steering fluid, and nothing else.

PSC ball bearing "race" Type II pump with integral reservoir and a Borgeson box. I'd like to add the long arms to the box and idler, the steering is too slow for me. My pump mount design doubles as a torque strap mount as well. [final hose routing is not shown]

Screen Shot 2019-03-11 at 9.48.18 PM.png18901441_10212111705684490_570470973_o.jpg
Last edited by GoodysGotaCuda; 04/21/19 09:35 PM.

1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: 71TA] #2648034
04/22/19 11:56 PM
04/22/19 11:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
I Win
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Posts: 30,947
Oregon
Originally Posted by 71TA
I've considered this conversion too. Glad yo're doing it Andy. Be sure to make more than one set of pump brackets smile


Here is an old picture I have of a Type II pump. I didn't make these brackets but I don't know where they came from. Does anyone recognize them? I looked the other day for Mopar big block Type II brackets and came up empty.

ps.jpg
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2648070
04/23/19 08:52 AM
04/23/19 08:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
71TA Offline
I Live Here
71TA  Offline
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Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
Damn. Those look nice.

Was it these guys?

https://www.bouchillonperformance.com/inc/sdetail/984/1005


www.DetroitMuscleTechnologies.com Mopar body and heater box restoration gaskets
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2648110
04/23/19 11:06 AM
04/23/19 11:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by 71TA
I've considered this conversion too. Glad yo're doing it Andy. Be sure to make more than one set of pump brackets smile


Here is an old picture I have of a Type II pump. I didn't make these brackets but I don't know where they came from. Does anyone recognize them? I looked the other day for Mopar big block Type II brackets and came up empty.


Possibly Unisteer ?? they have a setup that s very close except for the rear mount, the picture may be an earlier design ??

Unisteer LINK beer

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: TJP] #2648118
04/23/19 11:26 AM
04/23/19 11:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
Yep, I think it was Unisteer. They sent me one of their rack and pinion setups back then to look at and they must have included a type II pump setup. I'd forgotten about the pump bracket but it sure looks like the same one. I'll order one to see how the new design works.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2648286
04/23/19 09:24 PM
04/23/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,369
Michigan
MarkZ Offline
Worthy
MarkZ  Offline
Worthy

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Posts: 4,369
Michigan
Is there any benefit to going to a type II box over the Saginaw? I'm actually looking at buying a new pump this season and haven't had any luck with junk parts store boxes. Borgeson sells them and I just planned on get a pump from them to match the steering box. They're $350 though and for that I can get the brackets and type II pump from Unisteer.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MileHighDart] #2648318
04/23/19 11:37 PM
04/23/19 11:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138
tucson az
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frank Offline
top fuel
frank  Offline
top fuel
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138
tucson az
Originally Posted by MileHighDart
Originally Posted by krautrock
is it the photo or is there a bit of an angle at the coupler in the steering shaft?


Yes there is actually quite an angle difference between the shaft coming out of the box, and the steering column shaft
I emailed Bergman auto craft about this, his answer was that because the box is smaller
Than the original the angle is necessary, and his coupler is designed to handle the angle.


The same for the box I put in my Charger. I'm using my Saginaw pump that I already had. Have not driven the car yet but just turning the wheel staticly I could feel a big difference.

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: MarkZ] #2648330
04/24/19 01:18 AM
04/24/19 01:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
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Posts: 30,947
Oregon
Originally Posted by MarkM
Is there any benefit to going to a type II box over the Saginaw? I'm actually looking at buying a new pump this season and haven't had any luck with junk parts store boxes. Borgeson sells them and I just planned on get a pump from them to match the steering box. They're $350 though and for that I can get the brackets and type II pump from Unisteer.


The Type II box is lighter and more popular with the aftermarket than the Saginaw pump. I also think it looks better. I can't tell you on performance since I don't have any experience yet with either box. I think the Saginaw pump works okay but it doesn't seem to be the hot setup for the road race guys. They all seem to be using the Type II pump these days. So for a street car I think the Saginaw probably works just fine. The Saginaw is also dirt cheap to buy and rebuild (if you have the proper tools). Personally I think I'll end up with the Type II pump on my car but that is because I'm more Mod than Resto. I already have the EFI, Porsche brakes, Toyota alternator, digital dash thing going on. Might as well keep it rolling with a Type II PS pump........

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: AndyF] #2648584
04/24/19 07:39 PM
04/24/19 07:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
I Live Here
TJP  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,197
Omaha Ne
For those reading this and planning on using the type 2 pump, make sure to get a pulley that has a removable hub collar like a normal press fit saginaw pulley. The Unisteer pulley pictured above does not have the hub and is difficult if not impossible to remove once pressed on.

Also be aware that if you try to press the pulley on until it is flush with the shaft as usual, the back of the pulley will bottom on the pump housing mad panic
Can you say BAD DESIGN ??? beer

Re: Borgeson steering box [Re: TJP] #2648601
04/24/19 08:27 PM
04/24/19 08:27 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,681
Florida
BDW Offline
master
BDW  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,681
Florida
Love what Goody did, that bracket for the Gen 3 is sweet.
How do I get 1?

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