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Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2626317
02/26/19 02:45 PM
02/26/19 02:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar Offline
master
tubtar  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
I did my R-3 / W-9 about as cheap as you are going to , and it started in the " good old days ' when you could get blocks and stuff.
I stockpiled over a couple years and spread the cost out.
But I have 20k tied up in it if I have a nickel.

20170624_131647.jpg
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2626318
02/26/19 02:47 PM
02/26/19 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
I watched one of our Moparts members try to weekly bracket race a well built lt W8 or W9 combo and he sold off everything because of required maintenance and breakage. When you push these combos to the required rpm for power things are going to break. Don’t get greeedy and if you are happy running upper 5’s in the 1/8 you can’t beat them. Another thing the guys struggle with is getting the convertor dialed in. I follow Brett on Facebook and see how many times these convertors are sent back for re-stall changes and these guys are just test n tune guys out making hits. I would like to see these cars try a big bracket race weekend. It’s not going to happen, trust me. I love small blocks especially at my age climbing around these cars doing everything 100% by myself so I’m a middle of the road type of guy because I love big blocks too


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: pittsburghracer] #2626319
02/26/19 02:50 PM
02/26/19 02:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
W
WHITEDART Offline
master
WHITEDART  Offline
master
W

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
I watched one of our Moparts members try to weekly bracket race a well built lt W8 or W9 combo and he sold off everything because of required maintenance and breakage. When you push these combos to the required rpm for power things are going to break. Don’t get greeedy and if you are happy running upper 5’s in the 1/8 you can’t beat them. Another thing the guys struggle with is getting the convertor dialed in. I follow Brett on Facebook and see how many times these convertors are sent back for re-stall changes and these guys are just test n tune guys out making hits. I would like to see these cars try a big bracket race weekend. It’s not going to happen, trust me. I love small blocks especially at my age climbing around these cars doing everything 100% by myself so I’m a middle of the road type of guy because I love big blocks too
John and All Rights the converter statement is not completely true if you were looking for the last few hundreds they become very critical for the average guy not all that important Brett Miller struggles with his converter because he is doing something that is not common he has a very small motor and a heavy car that runs low eights that he foot breaks not an easy converter to build..


In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: pittsburghracer] #2626323
02/26/19 02:54 PM
02/26/19 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
W
WHITEDART Offline
master
WHITEDART  Offline
master
W

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Although we have to congratulate those with new bests keep in mind track and weather conditions. I hear the conditions were great
. my opinion good air bad air good track bad track a new best is a new best
. As you can see as mentioned above. Our killer air on the weather station was still close to a thousand feet wave. And yeah they actually prepped Irwindale. Also for the first time drag the surface

Last edited by WHITEDART; 02/26/19 04:06 PM.

In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: WHITEDART] #2626327
02/26/19 03:03 PM
02/26/19 03:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
W
WHITEDART Offline
master
WHITEDART  Offline
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W

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
Now we have radial prep.. this is our new drag... we are so excited.. I have been racing at Irwindale since the day it opened and the only thing they've ever had was the good old fashioned broom so yes track conditions for us or excellent

52163.jpeg

In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: WHITEDART] #2626335
02/26/19 03:13 PM
02/26/19 03:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Although we have to congratulate those with new bests keep in mind track and weather conditions. I hear the conditions were great
. my opinion good are bad are good track bad track a new best is a new best
. As you can see as mentioned above. Our killer air on the weather station was still close to a thousand feet wave. And yeah they actually prepped Irwindale. Also for the first time drag the surface




I have an online link that I check often to see the conditions others are racing in as I would often be able to figure out how my car would be running in those conditions. I have to be able to do this because some some of the races I race at have one time trial for four days of racing. Some of these races start at 8am and go past 2am the next day. The air out there went from -200 or so up to 1100 but the killer humidity that we struggle to dial never affected you guys and when I oh see Facebook videos with guys in hoodies all day that’s a good thing too. Fast is fast but like me I said in one of these big block small block posts you have to compare 🍎 to apples 🍏. Now which post was this again as you are confusing this oldman. Lol 😂


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: pittsburghracer] #2626379
02/26/19 04:35 PM
02/26/19 04:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
W
WHITEDART Offline
master
WHITEDART  Offline
master
W

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Although we have to congratulate those with new bests keep in mind track and weather conditions. I hear the conditions were great
. my opinion good are bad are good track bad track a new best is a new best
. As you can see as mentioned above. Our killer air on the weather station was still close to a thousand feet wave. And yeah they actually prepped Irwindale. Also for the first time drag the surface




I have an online link that I check often to see the conditions others are racing in as I would often be able to figure out how my car would be running in those conditions. I have to be able to do this because some some of the races I race at have one time trial for four days of racing. Some of these races start at 8am and go past 2am the next day. The air out there went from -200 or so up to 1100 but the killer humidity that we struggle to dial never affected you guys and when I oh see Facebook videos with guys in hoodies all day that’s a good thing too. Fast is fast but like me I said in one of these big block small block posts you have to compare 🍎 to apples 🍏. Now which post was this again as you are confusing this oldman. Lol 😂
I have often thought the same thing at times concerning weather track conditions Tailwinds and things like that what I will say is I haven't found the online. Weather stations very close at all for our local tracks.. it is nothing for them to be close to a thousand feet off at times.. course at the track sometimes from weather station to weather station there can be a bunch of change as well


In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: WHITEDART] #2626545
02/26/19 11:46 PM
02/26/19 11:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
I can remember being at Firebird raceway in Chandler, AZ when the first hand held weather station and ET predictors first came out back in around 1987 or so, a bunch of NHRA stock class racers where waiting in the staging lanes and most of them had them in their hands, one of them made a comment about the current D.A. and every one else looked down at theirs and it ended up varying from 1900 Ft. to 1300 Ft. in a ten foot circle shock shruggy
The couple I was helping got really upset that they all didn't match, I told them don't sweat the petty details, use yours for you tuning up
Just like a tire gauge or timing light, don't loaded your good one out and don't worry about other racers numbers with their tire pressure or total timing with their timing light tsk
I have seen a 4 MPH increase at LVMS with a tail wind blowing straight down the track instead of from across the track from early morning to early afternoon, from 123.+ MPH to 127.+ MPH shock shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2626603
02/27/19 02:23 AM
02/27/19 02:23 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,182
aZLiViN
J
J_BODY Offline
I Live Here
J_BODY  Offline
I Live Here
J

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,182
aZLiViN
I just eclipsed the 180 pass on my mill.... 162 of those passes were 2 years ago when we finished 3rd in the NHRA Hot Rod Heritage Series out here on the west coast. My deal, with the help of Brian at IMM who screwed it together, was a fairly fast bracket car. It pretty much went 9.4’s to 9.9s depending on what tracks we went to. It was dynoed with his in house 1050, but I ended up putting a Braswell 4825 (4150 style). Last year I just didn’t get out... but as the car was sitting on stands in the garage, I started tinkering. I’ve had a mild build Lofgren 904 sitting here for over 20 years that we ran behind our iron head 360 (still have it.. back up plan). I had Lenny build a converter for it, pulled the 727 and swapped the Griner brake in the 904 in favor of my Pro Trans piece. I have another complete W8 mill and that one the 598 intake had been crudely adapted for a 4500 carb. I made some spacers, ground on it a bit to open the plenum up some and blend the 1” spacer. I then sent our old 1050 dominator to Thumper for some updates and got it running. First pass out of the box with things fairly soft it went on the bumper. I stayed in it and luckily didn’t unload the slicks. We got the car tamed some and left the track with a new best of 1.24 60, 5.91.... not too bad for a fridged Tucson with uncorrected baro of 26.8. DA was 3600 to 4000.... which isn’t too bad for that track.

Last weekend I decided to hit Irwindale for the first time... entered the 10.5 class just for kicks. I knew I was outgunned, but it was a chance to run there. Got a best of 5.79/117 shifting into 3rd still wheels up. I think we could get into the 5.6s if we get the car to go down the track... unfortunately we wheel stood hard and did some damage.... if I were smart, I’d fix it, and put the bracket package back together... too be continued...

I guess I don’t consider mine “fast” considering what a lot of these engines in the W8/9 circles do, but we have fun smile

Fixed your new PB Jay smile

Last edited by Al_Alguire; 03/01/19 03:08 PM.
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2626692
02/27/19 12:36 PM
02/27/19 12:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,868
Smyrna, South Carolina
STEFF Offline
master
STEFF  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,868
Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By n20mstr
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Although we have to congratulate those with new bests keep in mind track and weather conditions. I hear the conditions were great


Time slips don't lie...the results are impressive who cares about the conditions. Lol

I'm impressed !


Agreed!! Performance is Performance regardless of conditions.

Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: J_BODY] #2626820
02/27/19 06:30 PM
02/27/19 06:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
6
65signet Offline
mopar
65signet  Offline
mopar
6

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
How many cubic inches is your combo?


1965 Plymouth Barracuda 273 M/SA
1970 Plymouth Duster 360/904 10.60s with J heads
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: 65signet] #2626912
02/27/19 11:16 PM
02/27/19 11:16 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,182
aZLiViN
J
J_BODY Offline
I Live Here
J_BODY  Offline
I Live Here
J

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,182
aZLiViN
Originally Posted By 65signet
How many cubic inches is your combo?


340! Says so right on the rear quarters! laugh2

Mine is a 9.20 deck R3 4” stroke 4.18 bore w/t one of Brett Miller’s top ends.... puts it right at 439. Along with brother Tubtar, I merely walked into parts and ordered a new R3 block... the end of an era!

I was going to wait until 200+ passes to inspect, but after last weekends “grand slam” I’ll probably tear into it. It’s really led an easy life until this past December

Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2626945
02/28/19 12:23 AM
02/28/19 12:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
Who cares if its bigblock or smallblock as long as its Mopar I love it !! Ron

Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: WO23Coronet] #2627517
03/01/19 02:03 PM
03/01/19 02:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock
ric3xrt  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
[quote=ric3xrt][quote=gregsdart]

Could you give a recipe for a high end G3 and what kind of hp it would put out? 800hp?


Not 800Hp, bet it's 2-3 day a week daily driver.
Clayton’s 426 1st version (*)
Hellcat block= $1400 from Steve White Motors (NEW)
Molnor 4.05 Crank =$ 930 +105 for ring (NEW)
Hemitronix VVT delete $550 (NEW)
Manley Rods 6.125 2-inch pin $650 (NEW)
Howards Cams Camshafts 786965-13 +$370 (NEW)
Lift: .625 In .600 Ex Dur@50 Intake 231 Ex 237
Lode Separation 113, IC 109 installed at 106
6.1 Intake and fuel rails $650 (Used)
Smith Bro Pushrods =$135 (NEW)
Diamond Pistons & rings =$ 840 (4.09 Bore 13+ CC dome) (NEW)
ARP Bolts, Head studs & mains $340+$160 (NEW)
PAC Titanium retainers =$225 (NEW)
PAC-1205X Valve Springs=$340 (NEW)
Manley valves (2.08/1.625) (New) = total $650
Clayton did his own port work on the heads.
Oil Pump Melling $165 (NEW)

(*) Total for above $6960.00 all prices were current 3/10/2017 this total does not include the 5.7 parts engine ($800)
Timing, valve covers and Eagle heads came from a 2012 5.7 that was purchased earlier it was going to be a 392Ci build originally but direction switched to the BGE block build.
Lifters are not included in above price.
The lifters were BBM no name link bar solid rollers I bought off eBay for $55, we removed the link bar, welded a pad on the inside just below the hole for the link bar anchor, drilled hole thru the body and welded pad, counter sunk the outside of the hole in the body ,installed a stainless rivet and machined the “exposed” part of the rivet in to a Keyway…IE Key lifter? Notched the block for the Key and obviously enlarged the stock lifter bore for the .824 dia to .904 dia
Price does not include any machine work, or balancing, in my opinion machine work pricing can turn in to apples to oranges discussion.
2010 Challenger@ 4100 Lbs. with driver this combo went a best of 9.97 @134 at Atco
10.21@ 131Mph was the average time and MPH of the 1st 30 runs put on this engine.
After 1100 miles and the 1st 30 runs with the Hemitronix VVT delete, I tore it down for inspection, I wasn’t happy with how the 1st cam bearing was wearing. Decided on a different approach to eliminate the VVT. Took a cam phaser removed the tone wheel, bought a timing chain set up for the Pre-eagle Hemi, Machined the back of the cam gear to accept the larger DIA of the VVT cam core, machined an Alum spacer to “move the Phaser Tone wheel in to alignment with the cam sensor. Ordered a Custom Grind from Comp cams Based on the Specs of the Howards cam. Car didn’t run any better of faster but we both felt more secure in the longevity of this engine, since the timing chain change another 25 runs and 6400 miles were put on the car.
Wallace Calculator says 710HP for the average 10.31s and a best of 760 based on the 9.97 MPH of 134.
Cam was updated last May to another custom Comp VVT, .654 intake .633 Exhaust 271/271@50 las is .004 intake and .008 exhaust, 6.1 intake was replaced with Drag pak intake and a sonny*S 8500 TB. stock rockers were replaced with Jesels off a Drag pak 6.1 I bought for parts. I sold them to Clayton for $1200. Last time we talked about cost, he figures there’s about 11k total, which includes the Hemitronix $550” experiment”.
Last year was a wash for track time, but this combo has roughly 7500 street miles on it since it was 1st installed back in late March of 2017. 90% of the runs were done on 93oct pump gas, the 9.97 run was on a 100oct tune,

I've done a few other G3 builds but this is the one that I know has some miles on it and the most runs of any other the others I've done, plus it used Eagle heads and still has Eagles on it, we never flowed the heads just simple 60 grit Intake finish some bowl work the exhaust port is high polished finish and uses a Nail head style valve.


Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2627554
03/01/19 03:04 PM
03/01/19 03:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Ill just ad one tidbit as to the conditions. We run an NA Smallblock all over the country. We have been as fast(actually a tad faster) back east in those hot humid conditions as we have out west. Two reasons one is the tracks are just better, second and more importantly we see higher barometer readings at all those tracks we have been to. We have been 8.0's in 142 water grains, which is typically triple what we see on a bad day put here. Heck Vegas at its worst is high 30's and typically single digit grains. The difference is we have NO barometer. Ever in California there is not much for barometer. My experience at Irwindale last weekend was about as high as I've seen the barometer outside of Sonoma on a great day or Mission. So just to ad some personal experience to the mix, no conjecture or speculation. We actually run in all those conditions. FWIW the NA 10.5 record is set every year in Bradenton. High barometer and good temps in a coupe week.

As for the smallblocks and how they run, no doubt they run well for sure. Like anything built for maximum all out NA racing they don't come cheap nor are they very long in the tooth. Its just a function of the environment they race in.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: got to re think this...SB vs BB [Re: n20mstr] #2627920
03/02/19 02:44 PM
03/02/19 02:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,534
bronx n.y
O
one bad fish Offline
pro stock
one bad fish  Offline
pro stock
O

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,534
bronx n.y
i love small blocks

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