Re: cross ram physics
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2616897
02/04/19 03:17 PM
02/04/19 03:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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I've had two different vehicles, a 1 ton car hauler and later a 1 1/2 ton class a motorhome, that ran on both gasoline and propane. Neither one ran as good on propane as they did on gasoline Horrible fuel mileage and a lot of power loss on propane The motor home was on straight propane when I bought it and it had very little power, I mess with the mixer and got better power and ended up with horrible mileage I removed that system and put it back on gasoline only and got better power and mileage, it did run hotter also More power = more heat Not clear to me, these were also long ram propane conversions? Also thought Propane is always best suited when a decent upgraded CR can be added to solution, which you did not mention? I would also think Propane on a long ram setup would be a rather "hot" temp wise intake charge, because of long exposed rams and lack of heat of evaporation contribution of the fuel.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: Handygun]
#2616951
02/04/19 05:20 PM
02/04/19 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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The Netherlands
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Installing a propane fuelsystem on a low compression 'turd' (smogger) engine only results in ending up with a bigger turd engine. Propane likes its own set of properties in an engine like proper timing-curve and increased compression ratio for instance. If a gasoline engine is not optimized for a different type of fuel, it will orcourse never make more power. For long ram intakes, propane, being a dry gaseous fuel, would be better to use as there's no chance of fuel re-clinging to the tube walls again during cold intake temps and slow airspeed during idling for instance. Also carb heating is not desired as it only makes the air less dense which means less fuel entering the engine. The long ram could indeed be functioning as a heat sink so maybe a reflective coating or other kind of thermal barrier would help here. But we might be straying offtopic as I don't anyone converting there longram system to propane that easily here
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#2616988
02/04/19 07:26 PM
02/04/19 07:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195
Bend,OR USA
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Isn't there a financial advantage in your country to convert your cars and light trucks to propane? BTW both of those vehicles had low compression H.D. industrial motors for regular gasoline, not optimized for propane. I spent nine months in Germany in 1967/1968 in the U.S. Army, I was shocked on how much the government fuel taxes where on gasoline over there back then I remember paying around 23 cents for premium a gallon in SO CA before I got drafted in 1966 and a tiny bit more two years later A G.I could by fuel ration coupons for gas from the PX on base with no taxes on it for 21 cents a gallon for regular or 23 cents a gallon for premium and the Germans were paying 91 cents a gallon up to 95 cents a gallon out of the same pump(fuel was sold by the liter, not gallons but the math worked out that way back then) I hate any government that doesn't serve the people who pay there salary as safe and efficiently as possible
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/04/19 07:31 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: dogdays]
#2617041
02/04/19 09:36 PM
02/04/19 09:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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So how is liquid Propane metered in this typical automotive format? Seems with a boiling point of -50F ?, it would be rather difficult to get it even past the intake valve.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#2617417
02/05/19 06:35 PM
02/05/19 06:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195
Bend,OR USA
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I remember reading a article about how much BTU each type of fuel contained in a liquid gallon, diesel then was suppose to have around 230,000 BTU (at the time of that article) (the new low emission diesel fuel now has around 130,000 BTU is what I've been told on here ) premium gasoline had around 110,000 BTU, methanol alcohol had 89,000, ethanol alcohol had 85,000, propane (I may have these gas liquid gas figures mix up ) had 58,000, butane had 57,000 and natural gas had 55,000. I don't think this article show Nitromethane fuel numbers If I am remembering these numbers correctly you can see why most big commercial trucks, trains and ships use diesel power for moving stuff
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#2617463
02/05/19 08:50 PM
02/05/19 08:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Heavy engines and equipment needs torque to get moving or do work. The best way to create torque is to build compression. With high compression you need a fuel makes use of this and works in such an environment. A long stroke crank design also plays a big part in max torque output applications.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: Handygun]
#2617483
02/05/19 09:34 PM
02/05/19 09:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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Posts: 4,206
New York
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Long stroke allows short, light, flat piston with high static CR.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: Handygun]
#2617512
02/05/19 10:18 PM
02/05/19 10:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 117 Aus
hysteric
member
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member
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Posts: 117
Aus
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There is some information concerning the long ram set up in this book. I can't remember how much but i do remember seeing charts that illustrated how much more torque they produced and where in the rpm range: Scientific design of exhaust and intake systems Chapter 11. MODERN INDUCTION PRACTICE . . Modern induction systems - Performance comparison, Triumph - Vauxhall design - Performance comparison, Vauxhall - Ramming pipes - Long ducts - Chrysler ram-induction - Multiple chokes
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: polyspheric]
#2617750
02/06/19 12:37 PM
02/06/19 12:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Long stroke allows short, light, flat piston with high static CR. We are jumping around here on different subjects, the long stroke comment I made was in reference to the solutions another suggested on moving "heavy' vehicles, and the "thinking" the best way to gain torque was thru compression which I am not in agreement with as an end all. In gas powered typical street applications, with pump gas there is effectively a CR limit, and any gains chasing smaller CR increases eventually results in diminishing returns. However there is practically no limit on increasing stroke, and the benefits from larger crank leverage that affords in achieving greater output torque numbers is also nearly unlimited. I am not for a second stating there are not downsides by increased stroke, mainly its a better design path for gaining increased torque then approaching a capped CR limit. And since we are now discussing different formats here, most heavy "vehicles" are diesel, have long strokes, have heavy pistons, and pistons are often contoured.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: cross ram physics
[Re: Handygun]
#2618038
02/06/19 11:28 PM
02/06/19 11:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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Stroke producing torque was identified as mythical around 1940.
Boffin Emeritus
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