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Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2614739
01/30/19 08:33 PM
01/30/19 08:33 PM
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polyspheric Offline
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w/r/t longer rod with corresponding longer dwell would increase the ram effect of the moving column of air
IMHO some change will be the IVC point (in terms of remaining stroke at the same crank position) will be later with the same cam, which allows a longer window of inertia fill ABDC, but the change is so small with any rod you could use to be more easily accomplished with retarded intake.

I'm trying to reconcile the new 10.5" of IR to the 15" used in the cross-ram?


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Re: cross ram physics [Re: longram60] #2614806
01/30/19 10:52 PM
01/30/19 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted By longram60
Interesting tech article from Hughes Engines that shows flow test of a 'short' long ram compared to more traditional intakes.

Hughes Intake Manifolds Tests


That was a worthwhile read. up

The Op may not like though. bawling


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2614834
01/30/19 11:59 PM
01/30/19 11:59 PM
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Handygun Offline OP
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I'd read that awhile back but not since I've had the car, couldn't remember where it was thanks for posting. No weeping here, Intakes stay with the car.

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2615430
02/01/19 02:12 AM
02/01/19 02:12 AM
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I have a 61 G and getting ready to order a cam. The engine builder and I discussed this Voodoo hydraulic roller (smallest they have for this engine). What do you guys think? Engine is 30 over 413, 10 to 1. Car to be restored to stock but has ross pistons and new rods

adv duration 262/270
dur .050 211/219
gross valve lift .507/.515
LSA/ICL 112/106
RPM 1400-5400

Sounded like good torque cam to move this boat around

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2615446
02/01/19 03:13 AM
02/01/19 03:13 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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The best way to wake up this manifold is to ditch the Carter carbs and install a set of Holley vacuum carbs. Made a very big difference on mine.

Digger73 (Mike)


I live with fear everyday but, sometimes she lets me race!
Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2615695
02/01/19 07:33 PM
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1850's? Does the Holley directly bolt on?

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2615713
02/01/19 08:41 PM
02/01/19 08:41 PM
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polyspheric Offline
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The bolt pattern is different, which means you need either to plug the holes and re-tap the manifolds (!!!), or use adapters (which add plenum volume and vertical height to the install). IIRC modest plenum volume was a key element in making the 4,500 lb. car with 2.93 axle and low stall speed responsive in traffic - I drove a 300F back in the day, and you wouldn't know what was under the hood unless you looked.
http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Four_barrel_mounting_flanges.htm

Before you do that: in my (somewhat limited and ancient) experience, the single biggest tune up problems with AFB is poor tip-in response - without attempting to modify the air door counterweight.
I agree it's annoying (especially to match them), but there are hints as to where to remove or add weight to match your plenum, pump shot, idle quality, stall speed etc.


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Re: cross ram physics [Re: polyspheric] #2615768
02/01/19 11:18 PM
02/01/19 11:18 PM
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If I remember correctly, with OEM style air cleaners, there is not a lot of vertical underhood clearance ( 300F & its been nearly 50? years eyes), I would think an adapter and a taller carb might get one into trouble?

Last edited by jcc; 02/01/19 11:23 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: cross ram physics [Re: Digger73] #2615891
02/02/19 09:28 AM
02/02/19 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted By Digger73
The best way to wake up this manifold is to ditch the Carter carbs and install a set of Holley vacuum carbs. Made a very big difference on mine.

Digger73 (Mike)


No...
the best way to improve them is to install throttle bodies and machine for fuel-injectors near the heads.
This improves cold starts by preventing fuel from forming back on the tube-walls again.


How about extrude hone these manifolds? Or something more DIY and less expensive and install a large sanding roll on a flexible extension and grind away the casting roughness in those tubes (eventhough a smooth surface won't always mean flow is less restrictive compared to an as cast-surface texture).

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2615893
02/02/19 09:34 AM
02/02/19 09:34 AM
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Handygun Offline OP
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your memory's working, there is not much above the air cleaners and I figured the afb's were the small footprint carbs.

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Digger73] #2615909
02/02/19 11:39 AM
02/02/19 11:39 AM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Originally Posted By Digger73
The best way to wake up this manifold is to ditch the Carter carbs and install a set of Holley vacuum carbs. Made a very big difference on mine.

Digger73 (Mike)

Apparently you missed Als post. His 60 Plymouth runs 11's like clockwork with two 500 Carter's. Take it from me as I run against him. The car is dead on all the time.
Doug

Re: cross ram physics [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2616055
02/02/19 05:36 PM
02/02/19 05:36 PM
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north of coder
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Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar

No...
the best way to improve them is to install throttle bodies and machine for fuel-injectors near the heads.
This improves cold starts by preventing fuel from forming back on the tube-walls again.


i have thought about this idea for several years, just machining a couple of plates that would sandwich between the heads and intakes to position the injectors and fuel rails.
as my panel truck project will not have a hood, height of the intakes at the base means nothing.
however, in the world when these were new, there was not much under hood room for adapters and ail filters.
beer

Re: cross ram physics [Re: dvw] #2616064
02/02/19 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted By dvw
Originally Posted By Digger73
The best way to wake up this manifold is to ditch the Carter carbs and install a set of Holley vacuum carbs. Made a very big difference on mine.

Digger73 (Mike)

Apparently you missed Als post. His 60 Plymouth runs 11's like clockwork with two 500 Carter's. Take it from me as I run against him. The car is dead on all the time.
Doug
Al's car runs hard have seen it many times He is also a decent fella, took and posted a pic of my 58 wgn on a different site for me once, no disrespect Al I forgot, I coulda PM'ed you on this.

Last edited by Handygun; 02/02/19 06:00 PM.
Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2616077
02/02/19 06:17 PM
02/02/19 06:17 PM
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The original 300F & G cars had a removable panel for spark plug maintenance in the inner fender accessible only from inside the wheel well.


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Re: cross ram physics [Re: polyspheric] #2616196
02/02/19 11:04 PM
02/02/19 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted By polyspheric
The original 300F & G cars had a removable panel for spark plug maintenance in the inner fender accessible only from inside the wheel well.


And again, if my memory serves me correctly, the panel's main purpose was to visually verify indeed, the motor had 8 plugs. rant

Which makes me think adding real headers might cause another dilemma, like setting valve lash hassles. Have yet to hear many add headers, even with cutting off the plenum floor chambers.

Last edited by jcc; 02/02/19 11:07 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: cross ram physics [Re: jcc] #2616201
02/02/19 11:15 PM
02/02/19 11:15 PM
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When I changed the plugs a few mo. ago I didn't know that and with all the swivels and wobblers and extensions I have I was Cursing engineering and respecting mechanics of the past some who are still here. When I later saw the access covers it didn't dim my respect for the mechanics however, you could eliminate the whole inner fender and these rams would still be a pita.

Re: cross ram physics [Re: billohio] #2616280
02/03/19 02:12 AM
02/03/19 02:12 AM
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Dunnellon, FL
longram60 Offline
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Originally Posted By billohio
I have a 61 G and getting ready to order a cam. The engine builder and I discussed this Voodoo hydraulic roller (smallest they have for this engine). What do you guys think? Engine is 30 over 413, 10 to 1. Car to be restored to stock but has ross pistons and new rods

adv duration 262/270
dur .050 211/219
gross valve lift .507/.515
LSA/ICL 112/106
RPM 1400-5400

Sounded like good torque cam to move this boat around


My cam's a little bigger (but so is my engine). Also a hydraulic roller, Hughes Engine:

Duration @ .050 228/236
lift .510/.533
LSA/IC 108/104
RPM 2800-6600

I also have a high stall converter. It will flash to about 3000.
RPM





Last edited by longram60; 02/03/19 02:17 AM.

1979 AMC Spirit, NHRA Q/SA
Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2616862
02/04/19 02:07 PM
02/04/19 02:07 PM
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Ohio
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Thanks longram. I was hoping with the smaller cam I would stay away with having to mess with the convertor. Not sure you can get convertors for the old 413 crank??
I was also hoping new technology was better than trying to run a 60 year old cam in that car. I am not sure if the cam I have is stock either
Thanks

Re: cross ram physics [Re: Handygun] #2616885
02/04/19 02:53 PM
02/04/19 02:53 PM
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The XR274R solid rollercam I have in the 496ci has to following specs;
Adv Dur. 274/280°
Dur @ 050" 236/242°
Valve lift 0.564/0.570"

I'm still running the setup with a stock stall convertor (1964 PB727), but I would advice against that.
The temperamental engine (because of the lousy fuel distribution at idle) makes 2-foot driving pretty much mandatory.

Fuel-injection or a gaseous fuel like Propane would solve most of these problems I'm sure.

Re: cross ram physics [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2616891
02/04/19 03:03 PM
02/04/19 03:03 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I've had two different vehicles, a 1 ton car hauler and later a 1 1/2 ton class a motorhome, that ran on both gasoline and propane.
Neither one ran as good on propane as they did on gasoline down Horrible fuel mileage and a lot of power loss on propane down twocents
The motor home was on straight propane when I bought it and it had very little power, I mess with the mixer and got better power and ended up with horrible mileage whiney shruggy
I removed that system and put it back on gasoline only and got better power and mileage, it did run hotter also work More power = more heat shruggy

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/04/19 03:05 PM.

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