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Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2608724
01/18/19 07:16 PM
01/18/19 07:16 PM
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I put a GM CS130 alernator on my car years ago and killed the amp meter. Hands down one of the best things I have ever done to my car. It performs great even with a 5" crank pulley.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2608741
01/18/19 08:12 PM
01/18/19 08:12 PM
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A high output alt will NEVER kill an ammeter. In fact is more the opposite.

read this and understand how the charging system works

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0/all.html

whatever you do, will need a mantenience work after 50 years of noncare on the charging system ( like it wasn't to be damaged ever )


Last edited by NachoRT74; 01/18/19 08:16 PM.
Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2608787
01/18/19 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Brad----it would help if you would be more specific about what aspect of the charging system's performance you are looking to "upgrade".

What aspect? I dunno...

It's got old stuff -- maybe perfectly functional, but old tech -- and I presumed there were "logical" parts upgrades I should make while the car's not back on the road, yet.

The car has an aftermarket multi-spark ignition box, an electric fuel pump, and the battery's been relocated to the trunk. Other than that, I don't think there's anything about it that makes it much more of an "Amp Eater" than stock.

Sorry for being electrically ignorant. shruggy


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Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2608838
01/19/19 12:42 AM
01/19/19 12:42 AM
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actually you are right does are not a big amperage eater devices. But still try to get the best alt you can able to feed all the car requirements at minimun engine speed. That will keep safe EVERYTHING. with those adds, I would try to get an alt able to source up to 45 amps IDDLING. If AC car, maybe on 52-55 amps rate

No matter if the alt is 1000 amps capable, if the car just sucks 35 amps thats what the alt will provide. And the amm won't sense that unless there is something being sourced from batt side of the ammeter, or engine is off, or batt is discharged which becomes it on a amps eater like any device, but the amm will sense that

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2608895
01/19/19 03:55 AM
01/19/19 03:55 AM
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If it is working okay then you don't really need to change anything. I'd think on your car a logical upgrade would be the Denso 60 amp setup just because it is less weight, it works better and it doesn't cost very much.

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: NachoRT74] #2608924
01/19/19 11:23 AM
01/19/19 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
A high output alt will NEVER kill an ammeter. In fact is more the opposite.

read this and understand how the charging system works

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0/all.html

whatever you do, will need a mantenience work after 50 years of noncare on the charging system ( like it wasn't to be damaged ever )



I meant I killed the amp meter, as in removed it. Sorry poor wording there.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2608969
01/19/19 01:49 PM
01/19/19 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Brad----it would help if you would be more specific about what aspect of the charging system's performance you are looking to "upgrade".

What aspect? I dunno...

It's got old stuff -- maybe perfectly functional, but old tech -- and I presumed there were "logical" parts upgrades I should make while the car's not back on the road, yet.

The car has an aftermarket multi-spark ignition box, an electric fuel pump, and the battery's been relocated to the trunk. Other than that, I don't think there's anything about it that makes it much more of an "Amp Eater" than stock.

Sorry for being electrically ignorant. shruggy


Multi-spark. MSD 6 sucks about 1 amp per 1000 rpm. Really no big deal because any alternator can keep up with that.
Electric fuel pump: Varies - see what the specs are. If it drawing on the battery at startup and even idle, then the alternator has to spend more time recharging the battery.

If you are driving it at night or in bad weather, at idle you may see the ammeter indicate battery discharge. If so, this means the alternator can't provide enough power at idle to run lights, pump and whatever else is on. Although this was normal, its not good for extended periods of time. Because the battery then needs a lot more recharging. You'll then see the ammeter go to charge for longer periods of time and at higher rates. That's what Nacho is talking about.

The mention of ammeter readings above assume the battery is the only item on that circuit. In other words:
* The battery in the trunk has a positive cable to the starter relay.
* the electric pump is fed from a connection at the fuse box or any place other than the battery or starter relay.

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2609147
01/19/19 10:11 PM
01/19/19 10:11 PM
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more info about this "issue" here:

http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.html

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: AndyF] #2609169
01/19/19 11:35 PM
01/19/19 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
If it is working okay then you don't really need to change anything. I'd think on your car a logical upgrade would be the Denso 60 amp setup just because it is less weight, it works better and it doesn't cost very much.


You can get a stock 60A alternator. So is there a difference in output at idle?
Anyone have an output vs RPM for Denso and stock alternators?

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: burdar] #2609214
01/20/19 02:20 AM
01/20/19 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By burdar
Quote:
Is this just an extra wire added, or is there cutting of old wires involved?


The MAD Electrical website has you cutting and splicing the factory wiring. You can read it here.
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

I'm not doing it exactly that way on my 68 Dart. I'm just going to keep the factory wiring intact but add the extra bypass wire. The bypass wire has a very low likelihood of shorting to ground but I'm still going to add a fusible like to it for my own piece of mind.

I'll be using relays on the headlights and on the convertible top motor to take as much load off the bulkhead as possible. I already bypassed the AMP gauge and will run a volt gauge instead.


This is what I suggest and sell all the time. Make sure the bulkhead is clean/fixed, leave the factory stuff in place, bypass ammeter and run a protected wire from alt charge stud direct to the starter relay. Running relays further reduces the load on bulkhead.

Don't like the mad approach with linking wires together.

Plenty of ways to do this... Pick your parts pay your money.


Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BDW] #2609292
01/20/19 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted By BDW
Originally Posted By AndyF
If it is working okay then you don't really need to change anything. I'd think on your car a logical upgrade would be the Denso 60 amp setup just because it is less weight, it works better and it doesn't cost very much.


You can get a stock 60A alternator. So is there a difference in output at idle?
Anyone have an output vs RPM for Denso and stock alternators?


As far I know the diff are related on the stator winding design, Delta or Y.

Mopar alts are more toward to get voltage "efficiency" on Y kind stator, while Denso are I think, Delta kind stator getting more consistent amperage output. Whats the deal in this? You need the more amperage as posible at lower RPMs. The batt gets amperage discharge not voltage discharge, so what you need the most? Amperes.

The spec given is the max output they can provide, but, how much of the amperage is given at iddle? Stock Mopar alts usually gives barelly 50% of his max output at 1800-2000 alt rpms. With a 1.9 ratio pulley that is around 900-1000 engine rpms so a stock alts are not able to give half of the juice at iddle. While this happens, your batt is getting discharged.

Based on my experience, our cars need an alt able to give at least 40-45 amps iddiling to be sure the minimal load requirements will be covered. Even better if your closer to 50-55 amps with AC

This will guarante to feed all lighting system, ignition, radio, brakes, turnings aside wipers and AC-Heater blower at at least low speed ( both ) without being assisted by the batt

ANY of this loads requirements will go through the ammeter unless the batt beging to supply it because the alt is not able to give it. So as soon your alt is able to provide the juice, the more distressed will be the ammeter.

Beside this, if the batt never or barelly gets discharged because alt is able to source everything by its own, once again, the ammeter will be more distressed

Last edited by NachoRT74; 01/20/19 01:22 PM.
Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2609330
01/20/19 02:34 PM
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This is an output chart from an alt I got at Rockauto. Stock replacement from mids 80s, known as 78 amps al

IMG_0367.JPG
Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: NachoRT74] #2609333
01/20/19 02:39 PM
01/20/19 02:39 PM
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natcho, a couple of questions.
what size crank pulley is the 1.9 alternator ratio based on, the 7" or 7 1/4" or other ?
what size alternator pulley, the 2 3/4" or 3" ?
what would you consider the ultimate alternator ratio to be ?
how does this compare to the ratio's of today's 100+ amp systems, say on a minivan using a denso alternator ?
beer

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2609347
01/20/19 03:18 PM
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They talk about alt RPM on chart. The alt came with the small pulley, so is about make the maths to know what crank pulley they used.

About make comparison between alts, thats at each own depending on your car requirements, my goal here is just tell the high output alts no matter how much won't hurt our stock systems just because the output by itself. You can fit a 2000 thousands amp alts but if your car just sucks out 40, thats what the 2000 amps alt will provide.

Amperes are not pushed in, but sucked out

A woman can get giant milky boobs, but the baby won't suck out more than he needs untill gets full. And the boobs could still be full of milk after that

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2609531
01/20/19 09:03 PM
01/20/19 09:03 PM
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Thx for the data/amp curve Nacho.
Would be nice to see something similar for the Denso for comparison.

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: AndyF] #2609538
01/20/19 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
If it is working okay then you don't really need to change anything. I'd think on your car a logical upgrade would be the Denso 60 amp setup just because it is less weight, it works better and it doesn't cost very much.

iagree
I run a Toyota/Denso 60 amp on my Savoy and it works perfectly and charges 14.6 volts at the battery in the trunk. I used to run an electric water pump and HHR fan with this set-up when I raced the car more.
Wiring is very simple and no external regulator to fail up

Gus beer

ar denso.jpgIMG_0018-1.JPG

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Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2609574
01/20/19 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
...and charges 14.6 volts at the battery in the trunk. I used to run an electric water pump and HHR fan with this set-up when I raced the car more.


is not about voltage is about amperes, they are related but diff things. Load is supplied by amperes... and racing is not a problem due the high revs, problem is at iddle

Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy

Wiring is very simple and no external regulator to fail up

Gus beer


But internal reg can fail the same wink. Easier to work on an external unit.

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: BradH] #2609593
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The denso units tend to work very well with providing sufficient amps at idle. I run a 75ish amp unit on one car at it's very good from idle on up.

Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: NachoRT74] #2609603
01/20/19 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
...and charges 14.6 volts at the battery in the trunk. I used to run an electric water pump and HHR fan with this set-up when I raced the car more.


is not about voltage is about amperes, they are related but diff things. Load is supplied by amperes... and racing is not a problem due the high revs, problem is at iddle

Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy

Wiring is very simple and no external regulator to fail up

Gus beer


But internal reg can fail the same wink. Easier to work on an external unit.


Been a Toyota tech for 30 years and a Honda tech for 4 years back in the 80's and have seen MAYBE 3 internal regulators fail so I think the failed regulator is a mute point.
Japanese built Denso alternators might fail in about 200 K
twocents


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Re: Bang-for-the-buck charging system upgrades? '73 E-body [Re: AndyF] #2610164
01/21/19 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF

I'm now switching my personal stuff over to low mount alternators since I'm EFI and don't have a fuel pump. I have low mount kits for 90A or 60A Denso alternators. Both would fit with plenty of room in a big block E body car. I doubt that you need 90A in your car so the 60A is probably the way to go.

I don't see the low mount kit on either your or Mancini's web sites. New product?


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