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Starting mockups for a 572 build... ugly pictures #2590008
12/10/18 07:56 PM
12/10/18 07:56 PM
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S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline OP
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I wasn't quite patient enough to dig up this thread every time I wanted to post something to it so it is spread out, somewhat.
Here is a consolidated thread list:

lower end assembly notes
Cross bolts=cross studs
Damper, FEAD, Plug wires, intake manifold and related comments
Cylinder head and valvetrain comments
Godzilla Lives: Excitement




That said: On with the ancient history



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone loves pics, right? lol...Mine aren't the best, but it's just for fun and I have nothing to prove....just trying to keep some content happening in a world seemingly filled with distractions.

Won't bore everyone with the story of how this came to be, but I've been very slowly collecting parts for a long time. The project stopped and started several times but the basic concept lived on (the concept is nothing detailed: a Great big dumb hemi, pump gas, not much more) it's close enough now to give it a push.

Right now I'm trying to figure out some of the parts combo but most decisions have been made.

Installed a couple mains to check crank runout + mocked it up without rings to get a visual of internal clearances (rods to cam, rods to block/bottom of cylinders and so on), no issues found.

This is 4.500 and I can definitely see where the next steps up in stroke and/or larger journal rods would start to cause interference...

The Milodon stroker windage tray seems to me kind of...exaggerated...
I know it's supposed to work fine and all just not sure I care for it being quite that far from the crank/just the way it's made. Looking at other options, full length is appealing. Screens and scrapers are appealing. There's definitely no big rush to slam it together.

Planning a tried and true m63hv pump but undecided on oil pickup. If I go external I'm thinking single line static should be all right. I am thinking about using the -12 external port in the block but it seems that runs the fitting pretty close to the lower rad hose.

Few more unanswered questions and decisions to make here and there, it's all part of the fun. But it seems ready to send out for balancing now.

These blocks kept changing all the time. This is one of the earlier blocks before they started tapping the mains for slide hammer...
I gotta remember to drill and tap this one just to make it easier to service. The caps have a slight interference fit to the crossbolt bosses and fit really tight, and you really can't wiggle them around very much to get them out without messing up a dowel.

all for now...

engmockup1.jpgengmockup2.jpgengmockup3.jpg

Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590043
12/10/18 08:44 PM
12/10/18 08:44 PM
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You need to buy or borrow a couple of different windage trays to see what works. The Milodon stroker one is super deep and I've never run into a combination that actually needed it. I use the standard Milodon windage tray with 4.25 stroke and 2.20 rod journals. There are a couple of other windage trays on the market so you can mix and match until you find one that fits.

You'll need to decide on oil pickup before you figure out the windage tray though since those things rarely play well with each other on a stroker.

I'd highly recommend staying with an internal pickup. Do you know what pan you're going to use? For a street car I'd stay with the factory Hemi pan. For heavy duty street use and some track time I'd use a Milodon road race pan if it fits for you. It is expensive but it should fit in your car and it will work really well without hanging down low. The external systems are expensive and a hassle.

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590044
12/10/18 08:47 PM
12/10/18 08:47 PM
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St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar Offline
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never tire of pics.
I have never tried these guys , but I like what I see..........
https://crank-scrapers.com/Chrysler_B_RB.html

Last edited by tubtar; 12/10/18 08:48 PM.
Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: AndyF] #2590046
12/10/18 08:51 PM
12/10/18 08:51 PM
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Prospect, PA
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Originally Posted By AndyF
I use the standard Milodon windage tray with 4.25 stroke and 2.20 rod journals.



Same here. Std stroke Milodon tray with a 4.25 arm and 2.20 rods. I'm using a "small" girdle too, which moves the tray away from the rotating assy too.


Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590048
12/10/18 09:02 PM
12/10/18 09:02 PM
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No upper thrust bearing in your mock up?

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: Porter67] #2590052
12/10/18 09:13 PM
12/10/18 09:13 PM
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ZIPPY Offline OP
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Originally Posted By EV2Bird
No upper thrust bearing in your mock up?


No number 2,3,or 4 bearings or caps, deliberately, at this point.
Following training from the late 80s, I guess it's probably not what anyone does anymore(?). I don't have v blocks and have always done it this way.

Don't know on the pan or pickup yet, will probably not be anything too fancy. Agreed I need more stuff to just check out and see how I like....

Internal pickup looks like no problem, might try it.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: tubtar] #2590099
12/10/18 10:08 PM
12/10/18 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted By tubtar
never tire of pics.
I have never tried these guys , but I like what I see..........
https://crank-scrapers.com/Chrysler_B_RB.html


That's the crank scraper I use.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: tubtar] #2590107
12/10/18 10:31 PM
12/10/18 10:31 PM
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Prospect, PA
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You can send Kevin a template and he'll cut you one from that. Then you can hand tweak it for a precision fit. I pinned my girdle and scrapper to the block.

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590108
12/10/18 10:31 PM
12/10/18 10:31 PM
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Pattison Texas
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The bottom of the bore edge looks sharp, I like to chamfer them.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590113
12/10/18 11:00 PM
12/10/18 11:00 PM
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I wouldn't bother with a scraper for this project. It is a bunch of work for a small gain. With a 4.5 stroke Hemi in a B body car you don't really care about that last 1/10 of a hp. Put it together as simple as possible. You'll enjoy it more in the long run and you'll never miss the tiny bit of power that you leave on the table.

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: AndyF] #2590147
12/11/18 12:08 AM
12/11/18 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
I wouldn't bother with a scraper for this project. It is a bunch of work for a small gain. With a 4.5 stroke Hemi in a B body car you don't really care about that last 1/10 of a hp. Put it together as simple as possible. You'll enjoy it more in the long run and you'll never miss the tiny bit of power that you leave on the table.


I would think that this scraper set up would control windage better than a tray......they also show a baffle for the back of the pan to help keep oil off the crank under acceleration.
Horsepower gains are a result of oil control , but the priority is to control oil........yes ?
Is there enough oil control with a tray that it mitigates any benefit of the scraper ?

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590273
12/11/18 10:07 AM
12/11/18 10:07 AM
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ZIPPY Offline OP
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Therin lies my conundrum, I've heard about some 4.5 stroke combos with street pans having high rpm oil pressure issues. Windage/air? Then there's also the group who says 2 quarts of oil are in each valve cover at high rpm....

I do prefer simple as possible, for sure. Always have.


Rich H.

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Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590366
12/11/18 02:17 PM
12/11/18 02:17 PM
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A big stroke engine will have a lot of windage at high RPM, no doubt about that. But you're building a street engine so 98% of the time you won't have any issue. When you take it to the track you'll just have to make sure that you have a couple of really good breathers in the valve covers. For street use you should be fine with a PCV on one side and a good breather on the other side.

My point is that if it is a street engine then don't spend a bunch of time and money trying to fix the 2% problem. You need a big pan to control the windage and/or a vacuum pump but neither of those are good solutions for a street car so you're just kind of stuck.

The Milodon road race pan is probably the best compromise. It has a fair amount of internal volume but it doesn't hang down very low. If you buy some good valve covers which have proper baffling for a PCV as well as a place to mount some high volume breathers then you should be okay. I don't know if such an animal exists or not but you can get sheet metal valve covers and then weld #12 AN bungs on them for screw in breathers or use AN lines over to the core support for a Moroso 3 qt remote breather tank.

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590383
12/11/18 02:35 PM
12/11/18 02:35 PM
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My 572 is not a street engine. Runs a screen w/o scraper. The oil level is aprox 2" below the factory full level. 6.5 qts in the sump is enough to keep the pickup covered with a good pan up to 7300. This is with a thicker rotor (+.100"? rotor thickness) Melling pump with a single line feed Indy cover.
Doug

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590406
12/11/18 03:13 PM
12/11/18 03:13 PM
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ZIPPY Offline OP
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Thanks Doug. I like the idea of a screen, or a full length tray that fits tighter.


Rich H.

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Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590426
12/11/18 03:45 PM
12/11/18 03:45 PM
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You know we love the pics (so keep them coming)! Sorry if I'm late to the party, but what is the build for? Projected power and purpose?


2 kids and a dog
Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: AndyF] #2590428
12/11/18 03:46 PM
12/11/18 03:46 PM
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ZIPPY Offline OP
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it'd probably be fine with a 6 pack pan. I have a Milodon repro on hand to check. I want to take a minute and see where the oil level is relative to the rotating assy sticking out the bottom to get an idea if I'll like it.

I'd like to drop the nose of the car a little and make the front end work better/get more upward travel out of it. Admitting a past error, my current best passes were with literally zero upward travel because the shocks were topped out. I fixed that long ago but haven't got around to running it again yet.


Rich H.

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Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590432
12/11/18 04:10 PM
12/11/18 04:10 PM
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The deep windage tray is too deep to fit a reproduction 6-pack / hemi type oil pan. If you have a main stud girdle it will space a shallower windage tray away from the crank.

Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: TonyS451] #2590438
12/11/18 04:23 PM
12/11/18 04:23 PM
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Hi Tony, taking baby steps towards a 572ci Street Hemi, eventual upgrade for the old Plymouth. More accurate to say street/strip but I will just stop there knowing you're very familiar with that whole deal (if you're not careful...next thing you know, it's a race car).

Originally Posted By 451Mopar
The deep windage tray is too deep to fit a reproduction 6-pack / hemi type oil pan. If you have a main stud girdle it will space a shallower windage tray away from the crank.


Good info, thanks.
If I go with a 7" deep pan then that tray will work.

Being cross bolted, I was thinking nobody made a girdle.




Rich H.

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Re: Tired of gratuitous mockup pics yet? [Re: ZIPPY] #2590456
12/11/18 05:24 PM
12/11/18 05:24 PM
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Your build looks similar to the one I did a few years ago.

Looks like a Mopar Performance/World block.

Being able to run an internal oil pick up depends on if you are running a 2.375 rod size rod journal or a 2.20.

I was running a 2.375 size rod journal.
With that size the bolt in oil pick up adapter won't clear.

There are threads here on Moparts about it.

I was using a 70-71 Street Hemi oil pan.

I ended up using a static/fixed oil pickup and feeding in to the AN boss on the front of the block.



The engine had a Keith Black 4.5 stroke billet crank.
I used a 440 Source windage tray for stroker engines.
They have 2 available now.
http://store.440source.com/Windage-Tray-Stroker-New/productinfo/127%2D1002/


The other one is curved to follow the crank.
http://store.440source.com/Windage-Tray-Competition-Style/productinfo/127%2D1021/


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
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