Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575037
11/06/18 09:26 PM
11/06/18 09:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,498 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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Good question, JB. Yes, the 55-56 heads are supposed to have a lot better intake port. These are aftermarket heads from Hot Heads Research and Racing. This is what they say about them on their website: "The best heads ever made for the early Chrysler Hemi, period. We started with a clean slate when we CAD-designed these water-jacketed aluminum heads for '51 - '59 Chrysler 331, 354, and 392 blocks. Using the latest in casting technology, our heads are cast from 356-T6 aluminum, with an extra thick 5/8 inch deck and combustion chamber, all with machining operations done on a CNC machine. We started with the favorable 1955 factory raised intake port design, improved it, and added a better-flowing rectangular exhaust port to increase flow. Hardened seats are installed for use with unleaded fuel, with intakes at 2.0625 (2 1/16) and exhausts at 1.80 inch, with bronze guides installed for 11/32 inch valve stems. We enlarged the pushrod holes to allow for larger diameter pushrods, and machined the spark plug tube seals into the head, and eliminated the heat riser to the intake manifold. Heads are 100 percent leak tested for quality control."
So far, I'm very happy with them except for the leak. But that is always a risk when you port.
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575289
11/07/18 01:05 PM
11/07/18 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Now that it’s a tested piece, and you know it won’t fill the pan with a coffee milkshake...... any plans to put it back on the dyno?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575328
11/07/18 02:30 PM
11/07/18 02:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Hopefully this winter I'll get it into the Dyno with 8 02 sensors and really get it optimized. Probably try the dual quad again too. Just to see what I'm giving up with the X3. Maybe test major changes in lash to see if it might like a bigger or smaller can. Any suggestions on what to experiment with? Interesting that you mention the 8 O2 sensors.mon yellow bullet there is a thread in the Uratchco section taking about using O2's on every cylinder. It may be in the Pro Stock Tech thread. Anyway, I've never done any testing with 8 O2's but some say it makes the tune up hard to get, because you never get it right (I'm not saying it well but I'm trying to say it induces errors in tuning...that doesn't even sound correct) and it makes it difficult to tune from that data. Hope I said that so it doesn't sound like a 3rd grader typed it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575388
11/07/18 04:01 PM
11/07/18 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Joel, since the basic configuration of the motor is already established........ I would think the biggest influence on power output will be in the induction system.
I don’t know if Hot Heads offers a race-ish oriented 2 x 4 manifold, but if they do, that might be something to explore if the set up you have seems lacking.
Of course, a properly set up Hilborn stack injection on alcohol would work pretty well on that combo too 😎
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: madscientist]
#2575400
11/07/18 04:09 PM
11/07/18 04:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,285 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
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I have had one motor dyno tested with 8 O2 sensors, the dyno operator insisted on installing the bung in my race car headers. It was a 544 C.I.B1 motor with the cast B1 single plane intake that ended up making a little over 900 HP on race gas. The O2 sensors showed that the intake had uneven distribution but what can you do with that information to fix that problem I will use those headers when I dyno tune my own B1 motor with a tunnel ram intake and dual Dominator carbs.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2575426
11/07/18 04:40 PM
11/07/18 04:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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I have had one motor dyno tested with 8 O2 sensors, the dyno operator insisted on installing the bung in my race car headers. It was a 544 C.I.B1 motor with the cast B1 single plane intake that ended up making a little over 900 HP on race gas. The O2 sensors showed that the intake had uneven distribution but what can you do with that information to fix that problem I will use those headers when I dyno tune my own B1 motor with a tunnel ram intake and dual Dominator carbs. That's kind of what the thread on yellow bullet was going with 8 O2's. It showed how bad distribution can be (and most likely is for most endings that are sorted out to the max) and IIRC the real issue was trying to clean up that distribution.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575434
11/07/18 05:01 PM
11/07/18 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,033 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
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Tulsa OK
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Some EFI systems can do per cylinder air fuel corrections when running 8 02 sensors. This is an interesting video, watch the Trims as the RPM comes up, they are all over the place until the RPMs get up. In those trims 100% is no correction. Now after going through all that how much power is it worth? https://youtu.be/6kQGp-fHuFc
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Bad340fish]
#2575491
11/07/18 07:18 PM
11/07/18 07:18 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,569 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Some EFI systems can do per cylinder air fuel corrections when running 8 02 sensors. This is an interesting video, watch the Trims as the RPM comes up, they are all over the place until the RPMs get up. In those trims 100% is no correction. Now after going through all that how much power is it worth? https://youtu.be/6kQGp-fHuFc If you are running EFI with sequential port injection and coil on plug or near plug ignition, OEM and I'm sure a lot of aftermarket ECMs can give you that data already with one sensor in each bank. The computers are fast enough now that it can tell which exhaust gas pulse belongs to which cylinder. Kevin
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575545
11/07/18 09:36 PM
11/07/18 09:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,498 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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With the 8 carb X3, it is a cross ram with a separate left and right plenum. Each 2 bbl carb sits right over the top of a port. I'm not sure, but it would seem that the a/f ratio of each cylinder would be most affected by the carb that is above that cylinders port. The carbs have aftermarket adjustable main jets, with a needle valve extending partly into each jet. So the point of the 8 O2 sensor test would be to equalize the a/f ratio of each cylinder, then dial in the most powerful overall ratio. THen when tuning for weather changes, turn each needle exactly the same. In this pic you can see the needle valves.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575598
11/07/18 11:25 PM
11/07/18 11:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,182 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Plymouth, MI
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Great pictures and writeup so far! Absolutely love your coupe.
Don't have much to add but if you don't want 8 O2's you can install EGT's in all 8 cylinders and get an idea of distribution that way.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575654
11/08/18 12:43 AM
11/08/18 12:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,498 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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My friend Jay who has a Dyno in his barn is planning to set up for 8 02 sensors anyway. So I might as well take advantage of it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575656
11/08/18 12:43 AM
11/08/18 12:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,033 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
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Tulsa OK
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With the 8 carb X3, it is a cross ram with a separate left and right plenum. Each 2 bbl carb sits right over the top of a port. I'm not sure, but it would seem that the a/f ratio of each cylinder would be most affected by the carb that is above that cylinders port. The carbs have aftermarket adjustable main jets, with a needle valve extending partly into each jet. So the point of the 8 O2 sensor test would be to equalize the a/f ratio of each cylinder, then dial in the most powerful overall ratio. THen when tuning for weather changes, turn each needle exactly the same. In this pic you can see the needle valves. Wow, so you have some external main circuit adjustments you can do, that is pretty cool!
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575719
11/08/18 04:00 AM
11/08/18 04:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,285 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,285
Bend,OR USA
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I was trying to remember which of the really early three bolt two barrel carbs like your using flowed the most air, Holley, Bendix, Stromberg Carlson, model 97 or model 84, the later 4 bolt GM Rochesters or which one?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 2018 Drag Week story, Hemi Joel version
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2575894
11/08/18 02:48 PM
11/08/18 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,498 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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Bad340, I figured with 16 mainjets, I needed an easy way to make adjustments! Cab, these are the largest holley 94's that they made with a 1-1/16" venturi. They are not nearly as common as the smaller ones. Finding 8 good cores was a challenge. We flowed them as well as the 4 bolt Rochester 2 bbls. Testing wwas done at 20.4" (1.5" Mercury - 4 barrel standard) and 28". Here are some pics of the Rochester:
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