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Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? #2569752
10/26/18 02:12 PM
10/26/18 02:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
The front drums on our '65 Satellite are not advancing,

I've had them open and all the parts are there and moving freely, not binding, the advance gear rotates willingly.. the advance gears haven't been swapped side to side.

I've also compared the '65 to the fully functioning '67 drums I have and the major difference I notice is where the 'advance arm' touches the 'advance gear'...

The arm on my '67 engages the gear much lower down than on the '65, it easily catches a tooth on the gear to rotate it. The arm on the '65 is higher and "misses" grabbing a tooth to rotate the advance gear.

If I use my fingers to press on the '65 cable, simulating a brake advance situation, the arm just pops past the teeth without rotating the advance gear.

The same holds for both sides brakes.. OK, so far so good -

The length of the cable hooked to the arm and the upper pivot pin is what dictates the positioning of the arms on the gear... If the cable was longer, the arm would drop lower, and engage the teeth correctly.

I can't stretch the cable, I can't move the "eye" of the cable any better... so do I just go ahead and bend the 'arm' so that it moves lower on the gear to engage the teeth? That's kind of destructive, but I can't fathom what else to do.

What else might help move the arm down to engage the gear lower down where it grabs a tooth?

I've thought of filing the teeth not the advance gear to be sharper, but that won't do it.
I've lengthened the cable as far as possible.
Could there be an issue with the two shoes being swapped "lead and lag".. if you know what I mean? But I recall checking that against the '67 and they're identical.

What would you do?
Thank you,
- Art

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 10/26/18 02:14 PM.

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569765
10/26/18 02:50 PM
10/26/18 02:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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I bent the arms many times. Tilt it in at the bottom. Sometimes that's still not enough. You may have to bend the tip in towards the backing plate. Test afterwards as you can go to far. The friction against he teeth when the arm returns can turn the adjuster backwards.
Doug

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569813
10/26/18 04:50 PM
10/26/18 04:50 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Any chance the arms/cable length is just wrong?

Assuming same size brakes on your 67, how do the cable lengths and arms compare? If someone before you did a brake job and installed new wrong hardware ie cables that you are assuming to be OEM, it might explain the difference.

Kevin

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: dvw] #2569814
10/26/18 04:53 PM
10/26/18 04:53 PM
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bboogieart Offline
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Wasn't mentioned.
Is this a new set-up?

If not new parts I would assume you checked the adjuster wheel for free movement, no?
I've had the grease dry up and then they don't want to rotate.


I have mechanical Aptitude.
I can screw up anything.
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569895
10/26/18 07:21 PM
10/26/18 07:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
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Albany, NY
Thanks guys,

Originally Posted By 67SATisfaction

...all the parts are there and moving freely, not binding, the advance gear rotates willingly.. the advance gears haven't been swapped side to side...


That's the thing - these are pretty idiot-proof setups.. everything is original except the cylinders.. and both sides of the '65 have the identical problem. Whatever I did, I did to both sides.. hmm.. so that's kind of an indicator.

I went through something similar on the rear of the '67, on one side only, it was driving me nuts.. I went from side to side comparing everything.. It turned out to be the cable's eyelet at the top pivot pin was positioned wrong... That was a "Slap to the Forehead" moment, for sure.. and I found *that* problem by sticking to basics, looking at every single part of the set up one at a time until I found it. I feel like i've done that this time too over and over. I'll try again before I give up.

Yeah, I could measure and compare with the '67, that's a good idea. But if the common practice is to bend the arm, and I can't do anything else, I'll go ahead and do that..

For now I'm crawling underneath and advancing the wheel with a little screw driver manually. ..PITA... but it's a hazard to NOT advance them.. I can feel the rears doing all the work after a while.

Thanks,
- Art

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 10/26/18 07:24 PM.

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569900
10/26/18 07:27 PM
10/26/18 07:27 PM
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Posts: 3,886
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bboogieart Offline
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Originally Posted By 67SATisfaction

...all the parts are there and moving freely, not binding, the advance gear rotates willingly.. the advance gears haven't been swapped side to side...

Thanks,
- Art


Sorry missed that some how.
It's just this is what I usually find when I get into the drum systems.



I have mechanical Aptitude.
I can screw up anything.
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569903
10/26/18 07:30 PM
10/26/18 07:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
Speaking of things that are new: The brake shoes are new of course..

And you know how there is a "curved slider plate" with a groove for the cable to rest in as it travels from the top pivot down the bracket with the actuator arm?
...Remember how that "curved slider plate" is held by round pin that sits in a hole drilled in the brake shoe's gusset plate?

You put the plate in that hole, then you insert the keeper spring with a hook on the end that holds the place in place...

What if that hole was drilled in the wrong place? ..by whoever produces those shoes. Then the cable could be pulled shorter.

I'll check that.
- Art


65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2569989
10/26/18 10:59 PM
10/26/18 10:59 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
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Originally Posted By 67SATisfaction
Thanks guys,

Originally Posted By 67SATisfaction

...all the parts are there and moving freely, not binding, the advance gear rotates willingly.. the advance gears haven't been swapped side to side...


That's the thing - these are pretty idiot-proof setups.. everything is original except the cylinders.. and both sides of the '65 have the identical problem. Whatever I did, I did to both sides.. hmm.. so that's kind of an indicator.

I went through something similar on the rear of the '67, on one side only, it was driving me nuts.. I went from side to side comparing everything.. It turned out to be the cable's eyelet at the top pivot pin was positioned wrong... That was a "Slap to the Forehead" moment, for sure.. and I found *that* problem by sticking to basics, looking at every single part of the set up one at a time until I found it. I feel like i've done that this time too over and over. I'll try again before I give up.

Yeah, I could measure and compare with the '67, that's a good idea. But if the common practice is to bend the arm, and I can't do anything else, I'll go ahead and do that..

For now I'm crawling underneath and advancing the wheel with a little screw driver manually. ..PITA... but it's a hazard to NOT advance them.. I can feel the rears doing all the work after a while.

Thanks,
- Art


Quote:
everything is original except the cylinders


Unless you've owned the car since it was new, that could be a faulty assumption.

You mentioned something about what if the hole that locates the doodad the cable slides over was in the wrong place. Is there a difference in hardware locations between say the same size 10" brake on B-body vs an A-body or if we're talking 11" brakes, a C-body?

Can you post a pic of your setup? Maybe someone will see the problem.

Kevin

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2570004
10/26/18 11:21 PM
10/26/18 11:21 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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This was a common issue back in the 70's/80's when these cars came into the shop for brake work. Many didn't work when dissembled. This issue was happening even when using the old hardware. This left only one option. The holes in the shoe were in a different location for either the cable guide/return spring or the hole for the self adjuster arm. No biggie, bend the arm correctly and it'll work fine.
Doug

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2570013
10/26/18 11:43 PM
10/26/18 11:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,483
Freeport IL USA
poorboy Offline
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The holes the pivot points the adjuster bracket stud goes into is a factory positioned hole. The odds of getting 2 with the holes improperly located are pretty slim I would guess. Brake shoes are mounted with the shoes with the longest lining is always on the rear side. The backing plate that the shoes mount to have raised pads the shoes sit against. I've seen those pads have groves worn in that that won't let the shoes move freely against them. Those 6 raised pads needs to have perfectly flat surfaces. The top of the shoes also needs to sit tight against the top post. If the shoes are not fully seated, it can make the adjusting cable hold the adjusting lever in the incorrect position.

The cable also needs to sit in the recess of the cam at the center of the shoe, that is held in place by the return spring. That cam also needs to sit flat against the shoe. If it is out of position, it effects the position the lever rests in. The cable end also needs to be fully seated in the lever, and the lever has to be fully seated in the grove in the pivot stud.

If you have replaced the cable, you want to be sure the new cable is the correct length. There isn't much difference in the cable length between the 10" brakes and the 11" brakes, I have seen more then a few cables incorrectly tagged or in the wrong boxes.

I have been doing drum brakes for 45 years, both personally and professionally and I have only had to bend the adjusting lever a dozen or so times in all those years. Most of those times have been replacement parts, and many were more recent. New parts these days leave a lot to be desired. Gene

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: poorboy] #2573024
11/02/18 02:04 PM
11/02/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
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Thanks all,

I do think the answer will be simple - once I find it. Another head slap, probably.

Originally Posted By poorboy

The cable also needs to sit in the recess of the cam at the center of the shoe, that is held in place by the return spring. That cam also needs to sit flat against the shoe. If it is out of position, it effects the position the lever rests in. The cable end also needs to be fully seated in the lever, and the lever has to be fully seated in the grove in the pivot stud.

I have been doing drum brakes for 45 years, both personally and professionally and I have only had to bend the adjusting lever a dozen or so times in all those years. Most of those times have been replacement parts, and many were more recent. New parts these days leave a lot to be desired. Gene


Thanks, Gene, everything you wrote makes sense.
This gets at the root of the problem - the curved plate you are calling a cam - that's the part that is held in place by sitting in a hole on the brake shoe gusset (and its held there by the return spring)... that hole in the gusset is punched by whoever makes the shoe - which is a replacement part that could have been produced with the hole in the wrong place, making the cable the wrong length (and then the whole production batch would have been wrong, so thousands would have the same problem)... or it's remotely possible I have swapped the shoes front/rear, but I'll see that once I open it up..

In short, I'll scrutinize everything you wrote here. I'll share some pictures here too.. I had to put it back into storage for a week to take care of another car issue..
Good times.
- Art

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 11/02/18 02:06 PM.

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2573171
11/02/18 07:23 PM
11/02/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Agreed I failed to list that stamping as a cause. Bottom line, bend the tab and move on. If it adjusts, it adjusts. It's not rocket science.
Doug

Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2575633
11/08/18 12:02 AM
11/08/18 12:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
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I found the problem.

It's happening on one side of the fronts only.

The curved plate that guides the cable... it has a round "pin" that inserts into the hole on the brake shoe gusset. That "pin" is about 1/8" around - and it has worn down so much that the plate has moved and allowed the cable to sag.

Time to talk to my local 'Mopar Hoarder' and see if he's got some spare old drum brakes kicking around..
- Art

Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 11/13/18 08:44 PM.

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2575808
11/08/18 12:09 PM
11/08/18 12:09 PM
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Lincoln Nebraska
Art that was too easy!


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2575943
11/08/18 04:12 PM
11/08/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,094
Western Md.
skicker Online tonguue
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skicker  Online Tonguue
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Art...post a pic of what you need...I may have several just laying around here too...If it's what I think it is they're the same for LH or RH applications...


...FAFO...
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: skicker] #2578342
11/14/18 01:21 PM
11/14/18 01:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

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Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
Originally Posted By skicker
Art...post a pic of what you need...I may have several just laying around here too...If it's what I think it is they're the same for LH or RH applications...


Thanks skicker,
It’s the steel plate with the curved groove that guides the cable.. yeah, I’m thinking they are interchangeable LH to RH.. there should be a photo attached, trying this frok my iPhone..

- Art

2CDCAE8C-CFD7-4B25-9E0F-FCFE2C17D2F4.jpeg

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2578373
11/14/18 02:07 PM
11/14/18 02:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:
I’m thinking they are interchangeable LH to RH.
Correct


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: RapidRobert] #2578468
11/14/18 06:02 PM
11/14/18 06:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,094
Western Md.
skicker Online tonguue
"The Champ"
skicker  Online Tonguue
"The Champ"

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Western Md.
If you don't get one local send me a pm with your address...I have several sets laying around...


...FAFO...
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: skicker] #2578495
11/14/18 07:35 PM
11/14/18 07:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
Originally Posted By skicker
Art...post a pic of what you need...


Trying this again with reduced file size engaged...

IMG_7508.jpg

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
Re: Front brakes shoes not advancing - do I bend the arm..? [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2578499
11/14/18 07:40 PM
11/14/18 07:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
Now that I have the hang of reduced pic file size, I can show you all what was going on...

The top photo is the RH side, which worked fine - notice the blade or "arm" comes to about the center of the advance wheel.

The lower photo is the LH inoperative side - notice the 'arm' is too low, so it won't lift enough to grab a tooth on the advance wheel...

IMG_7504.jpgIMG_7514.jpg

65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
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