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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: BSB67] #2563805
10/14/18 12:08 PM
10/14/18 12:08 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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Also bear in mind that tire diameter offsets gearing to some extent, so if your car was originally equipped with 26" tall tires and you go to 28" tires and a 4.10, you're roughly at only an effective 3.78:1 ratio when you compare the tire roll-out. The engine rpm at any given speed is easy to calculate the offset in ratios. Note: assumes a 1:1 manual trans, obviously no compensation for converter slip.

A good cooling system is essential for sustained moderate-high rpm, a higher capacity oil pan with a thermostatic cooler is the best, trans cooler as well. Oil does roughly 1/2 the cooling of an engine and the water and oil work together to wick away heat.

Last edited by Streetwize; 10/14/18 12:21 PM.

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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563860
10/14/18 02:19 PM
10/14/18 02:19 PM
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wyrmrider Offline
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Lots of great suggestions
Built lots of Bus and Boat Motors so here goes
Oil cooler -detail oil system corners and the windage tray etc suggestions
road race pan
tranny cooler (100 plate and fin) no S tube type) with half inch in and out and half inch oil proof lines) (Ford truck at pick a part)
Throw some tall tires on it smile
If the motor is not built yet build it with some quench and keep the overlap down if stock heads use the motorhome 352 heads with the cooling holes for the exhaust valves if stock heads use the motorhome valves viton seals light dual springs bronze guides with the spiral
if roller tip rockers go to the B3 page and read the 4 tech articles
get your geometry spot on (even if the motor is already built this is an easy fix)
if stock rockers lash caps (stock rockers are not what they used to be)
and oil through the lifters (Magnum style) and pushrods for the rocker cup
I'd recommend at least Iron rockers if any spring pressure and do not like aluminum rockers for any endurance build
once broken in think 0W-40 Eurospec synthetic (MB and BMW approved made from natural gas)
earplugs or headset for your tunes
you should be able to run a normal thermostat temp of the stat does not control maximum engine temp- if you are running hot something else is wrong
plug all holes in the core support and run a spoiler/ valance

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563874
10/14/18 02:49 PM
10/14/18 02:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,696
central il.
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second 70 Offline
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My Hemi Cuda has a four speed, 4:10 and 28" tall tires and turns 3500 @ 70.

My 327 corvette has a four speed,3:36 and 7.75 X 15 tires and turns 3000 @ 70.

Only 500 rpm difference and they're both happy at that rpm.

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563877
10/14/18 02:54 PM
10/14/18 02:54 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Many good suggestions so far, but i don't see running a 440 in bone stock configuration at 4,000 rpm all day long as a problem. Just use a great quality oil, the proper tune and octane for the motor, and don't use any fast rate of lift cams.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563897
10/14/18 03:29 PM
10/14/18 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
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The original cooling capacity is more than adequate for 4,000 RPM.
Oil temperature tracks load, not RPM: stock is more than enough.
Why are any special pieces needed to do what the engine was designed for in 1959?


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563910
10/14/18 03:57 PM
10/14/18 03:57 PM
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Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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Ever heard of Gear Vendor


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563961
10/14/18 05:24 PM
10/14/18 05:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Trumbull,CT.
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My brother's 340 Dart had 4.10s with a 26.5 rear tire. On the haighway it was around 3000rpm @55mph.

How short is your tire and how fast do you plan to drive where 3500-4500rpm enters into the equation???

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2563965
10/14/18 05:39 PM
10/14/18 05:39 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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At 3500, 28" tire and 3.55's I'm at about 78-80. I cruise at that on the freeway, usually.

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564051
10/14/18 08:46 PM
10/14/18 08:46 PM
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Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie Offline OP
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Thanks for the ideas guys. I neglected to say that the engine will be in a stock resto car. So, no bigger oil pans or anything external that is not stock. Speed limit where I live averages 70 mph.


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: rowin4] #2564055
10/14/18 08:53 PM
10/14/18 08:53 PM
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West Plains, MO
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Originally Posted By rowin4
Ever heard of Gear Vendor


I have. Are you buying? whistling

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564059
10/14/18 08:59 PM
10/14/18 08:59 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,559
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Originally Posted By Dixie
Thanks for the ideas guys. I neglected to say that the engine will be in a stock resto car. So, no bigger oil pans or anything external that is not stock. Speed limit where I live averages 70 mph.


Any other minor details you care to share?

Kevin

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564074
10/14/18 09:40 PM
10/14/18 09:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 490
IL
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Crank scraper. Johnson/Ishihari is good, have two of those. IDK if you can use one of the carb looking, throttle body EFI units, avoiding too much fuel, diluting oil/washing the rings would be important. If not, carb tuning and getting the timing dialed in are obviously extra important. Can you use a fuel/air monitor like an Innovate? S/F....Ken M

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564145
10/14/18 11:07 PM
10/14/18 11:07 PM
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Minnesota
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I would recommend using a vacuum advance distributor. With light throttle high RPM Cruise conditions, the motor will be much happier and run cooler with some additional advance.


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564172
10/14/18 11:42 PM
10/14/18 11:42 PM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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I would recommend using a vacuum advance distributor

This^^^


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: gregsdart] #2564322
10/15/18 11:37 AM
10/15/18 11:37 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Originally Posted By gregsdart
Many good suggestions so far, but i don't see running a 440 in bone stock configuration at 4,000 rpm all day long as a problem. Just use a great quality oil, the proper tune and octane for the motor, and don't use any fast rate of lift cams.


I agree....... if for no other reason than the noise!!


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Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564378
10/15/18 01:25 PM
10/15/18 01:25 PM
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OK stock looking so stock looking big pan, windage tray, scraper
vac advance
what fast68 says about cams
Engle .904 series, Mopar Performance, Crane .904 series are not excessive
Howard and the Comps HL are more so
Voodoo somewhere in the middle
Bullet has both available
Chevy profiles like the XE series are fast action but since they use a smaller portion of the lifter they do not look like it in their specs
do keep the overlap down so you do not blow heat out the exhaust
do not open the exhaust early long rod engines are more sensitive to BDC valve events than short rod engines like chevy
stock 440 Magnum cam runs hot in this application due to long closing ramps
stock no quench pistons also runhot
In 440 buses we dropped EGT 800 degrees with quench and cam change (Moon)
Endurance 440's tend to run the center two exhaust valves hot so I stand by the head suggestions
You are better off with a long rod and light piston as someone suggested compared to a six pack rod and heavy piston (which will live- but not as quick
I like the efi if not AVS or TQ (better) make sure the secondaries are not opening at cruze
Lots of improvements in valve springs since 440 was new
I'd rather have stock rockers with oil through the pushrods and lash caps than cheap aluminum roller rockers (given no fast rate cam and moderate springs)

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564403
10/15/18 02:20 PM
10/15/18 02:20 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Going from (fading) memory here... With my 4.10s, 275/60R15s (loaded radius is actually shorter than advertised 28"-ish diameter, more like 27.5"), loose converter... 60 MPH is about 3000 and 65 MPH is closer to 3500. I'll drive it steadily at 65, but not any faster for any extended distances. The noise factor above that gets on my nerves.

Not sure what exactly you'd do to build it to live longer at a projected cruising RPM, vs how it should be built to handle the peak RPM. My junk is built for a performance goal: the cruise RPM on the highway is a byproduct of the package of compromises I've made to achieve that performance goal.

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: BradH] #2564432
10/15/18 03:12 PM
10/15/18 03:12 PM
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Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie Offline OP
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Originally Posted By BradH
Going from (fading) memory here... With my 4.10s, 275/60R15s (loaded radius is actually shorter than advertised 28"-ish diameter, more like 27.5"), loose converter... 60 MPH is about 3000 and 65 MPH is closer to 3500. I'll drive it steadily at 65, but not any faster for any extended distances. The noise factor above that gets on my nerves.

Not sure what exactly you'd do to build it to live longer at a projected cruising RPM, vs how it should be built to handle the peak RPM. My junk is built for a performance goal: the cruise RPM on the highway is a byproduct of the package of compromises I've made to achieve that performance goal.


My goal isn't a projected cruising RPM, but rather how to improve it's longevity if and when I drive it for extended periods of time at those RPM's. With today's technology, I'm sure there are things I can do internally to improve it over stock.

Thanks for the input guys, lots of good stuff here.


Dixie Restoration Parts
Phone -(770) 975-9898
Phone Hours: M-F 10am-5pm EST
website: www.dixierestorationparts.com
email: mail@dixierestorationparts.com
Veteran owned small business

The Best Parts at a Fair Price.
Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564473
10/15/18 04:45 PM
10/15/18 04:45 PM
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Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Longevity to me would imply:
- precision machine work
- measured rod & main journal clearances to select the oil viscosity that is best suited to them
- 4032 forged pistons (I don't like cast or hyper-casts) for tight cold clearances and reduced hot expansion
- file-fit rings, NOT generic "drop in" rings where the gap sizes are like rolling dice
- plate-honed bores to allow fitting the pistons at the proper clearance
- oil system mods along the lines of what others said before
- smooth cam lobes (hydraulic or solid) that won't beat up the valve train and don't require heavy spring pressures
- building the engine w/ reasonable quench/squish to help offset detonation with "street octane" fuel
- getting the tune dialed in to keep the car out of any detonation
- getting the carb dialed in (along w/ during the tuning phase) to make sure the engine runs clean and doesn't put excessive raw fuel down the cylinders

I dunno... just a bunch of things that came to mind.

Re: Recommendations building a 440 to live at 3500-4500 rpm? [Re: Dixie] #2564478
10/15/18 04:53 PM
10/15/18 04:53 PM
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Why do you think a stock build would not live? They did back in the day. Even if it's worn out again by 100k that sounds like a lifetime's worth of driving for a show car/weekend warrior.

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