Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: longram60]
#2518380
07/06/18 01:11 PM
07/06/18 01:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I know David Vizard is a big proponent of them, but the debate on SpeedTalk has never been resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Some folks say they see small power gains. Others say there's no power benefit, but the engines "stay fresh" longer. And others, like RAMM, have reported oiling issues; he's NOT the only one to have raised this issue, for anyone who thinks he's an outlier on this subject. I don't have an R&D budget to prove/disprove their benefits to myself. Since my own limited findings have been inconclusive, I'm using a more traditional ring pack now. To the person who asked if I liked Napier 2nd rings, I don't have any miles (only dyno time) on the engine to see how the oil consumption is. What I do know is that GM switched from the old 2nd ring design to Napier 2nds as part of their "fix" (or mitigation?) of high oil consumption with certain LS engines.
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2518423
07/06/18 02:40 PM
07/06/18 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,478 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,478
Kalispell Mt.
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I noticed less blow by at idle, I've never had an issue with oil consumption in any engine I built except one that was washing down the bores because the carb was so rich and that one was fine after putting the long block in an EFI rig.
My last hot rod I built for myself I tried 1/16 rings, low tension top and oil rings with a napier 2nd and it uses zero oil and no blow by holding my hands over the cap and breather holes when hot, just a tiny bit cold and that engine turns over very easy, I can grab the crank snout with my bare hands and turn the whole short block over with no valve train. I did atempt to keep some of the oil drain back from the heads off the crank by draining some of it to the timing chain, I ran a std oil pimp, crank scraper and tighter than normal bearing clearances with highly polished crank journals.
I used to be afraid of low tension skinny rings but all the manufactures are doing it and you hardly see any issues with them burning oil. My 2011 5.7 had 300,000 miles with 1mm rings and didn't burn a drop, just had a flat cam from a roller tht stopped rolling. They use good oil control combined with the thin rings to help efficency and combine that without carbs dumping excess fuel bore wear is almost gone.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: BradH]
#2518470
07/06/18 04:28 PM
07/06/18 04:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I know David Vizard is a big proponent of them, but the debate on SpeedTalk has never been resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Some folks say they see small power gains. Others say there's no power benefit, but the engines "stay fresh" longer. And others, like RAMM, have reported oiling issues; he's NOT the only one to have raised this issue, for anyone who thinks he's an outlier on this subject. I don't have an R&D budget to prove/disprove their benefits to myself. Since my own limited findings have been inconclusive, I'm using a more traditional ring pack now. To the person who asked if I liked Napier 2nd rings, I don't have any miles (only dyno time) on the engine to see how the oil consumption is. What I do know is that GM switched from the old 2nd ring design to Napier 2nds as part of their "fix" (or mitigation?) of high oil consumption with certain LS engines. Like I've said, I've personally used so many sets of these rings and not had a single issue that I find it hard to believe everyone can't get them to seal. It's a freaking ring. It doesn't know it's gapless. I finish all my bores with a 400 finish and hit it with a brush for 8 strokes. Without having the honing book in front of me I can't give you the exact values of the finish but IMO it's not that hard to achieve. I also know other builders using them and I called one yesterday and he says he's not having issues either. BTW and FWIW I developed my honing procedure way back in 1995 through several phone calls with Earl Garte and several more with Smokey Yunik, since I read an article in Circle Track magazine where Smokey worked with Peterson Machine Tool (IIRC) to develop soft hone brushes. I've used that finish on everything from tool steel to plain cast iron that were new old stock from 1954 and never had any issues with ring seal. I also spent many hours on the dyno with the first 3-4 engines that I personally used them in to measure actual blow by under load. The rings every single time showed a massive improvement in blow by reduction. The first engine was a 400 Chevy done by another shop. It was an oil burner. You knew it had no ring seal because you couldn't keep oil in the engine. It would build crankcase pressure and blow oil out wherever it could. When it was sealed up, it would blow the dipstick out. It was .060 and the owner wanted a new block. I talked him into letting me use gapless top rings to test them and if it didn't work he didn't have to pay for it. I ran into him earlier this year. It's still going. Doesn't use oil. Runs as good now as the day it came off the dyno. The moral of the story is if you can't get a ring to seal that's on you. Most rings are pre-seated before they even go into the box. Cheap rings used to be belt lapped and the better rings were barrel lapped, although there may be a better method now. There is no excuse for bad ring seal in this day and age. No excuse. To blame the rings is like a machinist blaming his tools for piss poor work. I never base how I build engines on what OEM's do.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: madscientist]
#2518494
07/06/18 05:15 PM
07/06/18 05:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Boy is this thread getting convoluted fast. OP asked about the gapless tops in an effort to reduce oil consumption. So they reduce blowby--BFD. I've seen engines with a lot of blowby make very good power--I've also seen the same engine freshened up to near zero blowby with conventional rings--Near ZERO power change. Again if using a leakdown test number as a badge of honour or a few more cranking PSI is your thing--have at it. My recommendation is to NOT use them. I don't care who uses them--I won't. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: madscientist]
#2518496
07/06/18 05:22 PM
07/06/18 05:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Like I've said, I've personally used so many sets of these rings SURE YOU HAVE and not had a single issue that I find it hard to believe everyone can't get them to seal. It's a freaking ring. It doesn't know it's gapless. It actually does if it becomes unloaded under high vacuum due to pressure build up between it and the second
I finish all my bores with a 400 finish and hit it with a brush for 8 strokes. Without having the honing book in front of me I can't give you the exact values of the finish but IMO it's not that hard to achieve.
I also know other builders using them and I called one yesterday and he says he's not having issues either. BTW and FWIW I developed my honing procedure way back in 1995 through several phone calls with Earl Garte and several more with Smokey Yunik, since I read an article in Circle Track magazine where Smokey worked with Peterson Machine Tool (IIRC) to develop soft hone brushes. Here we go again with the namedropping huh YellowRose
I've used that finish on everything from tool steel to plain cast iron that were new old stock from 1954 and never had any issues with ring seal.
I also spent many hours on the dyno with the first 3-4 engines that I personally used them in to measure actual blow by under load. The rings every single time showed a massive improvement in blow by reduction.Who cares?
The first engine was a 400 Chevy done by another shop. It was an oil burner. You knew it had no ring seal because you couldn't keep oil in the engine. It would build crankcase pressure and blow oil out wherever it could. When it was sealed up, it would blow the dipstick out.
It was .060 and the owner wanted a new block. I talked him into letting me use gapless top rings to test them and if it didn't work he didn't have to pay for it.
I ran into him earlier this year. It's still going. Doesn't use oil. Runs as good now as the day it came off the dyno.
The moral of the story is if you can't get a ring to seal that's on you. Most rings are pre-seated before they even go into the box. Pre-seated? Never heard of this Cheap rings used to be belt lapped and the better rings were barrel lapped, although there may be a better method now.
There is no excuse for bad ring seal in this day and age. No excuse. To blame the rings is like a machinist blaming his tools for piss poor work.
I never base how I build engines on what OEM's do. I do-pretty hard to compete with billions in R&D
J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#2518498
07/06/18 05:27 PM
07/06/18 05:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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I noticed less blow by at idle, I've never had an issue with oil consumption in any engine I built except one that was washing down the bores because the carb was so rich and that one was fine after putting the long block in an EFI rig.
My last hot rod I built for myself I tried 1/16 rings, low tension top and oil rings with a napier 2nd and it uses zero oil and no blow by holding my hands over the cap and breather holes when hot, just a tiny bit cold and that engine turns over very easy, I can grab the crank snout with my bare hands and turn the whole short block over with no valve train. I did atempt to keep some of the oil drain back from the heads off the crank by draining some of it to the timing chain, I ran a std oil pimp, crank scraper and tighter than normal bearing clearances with highly polished crank journals.
I used to be afraid of low tension skinny rings but all the manufactures are doing it and you hardly see any issues with them burning oil. Mostly true however what is ironic is the last time I spoke with Keith Jones about this very issue he started complaining about how his brand new 2016 GM LS truck burned a quart every 1000 miles and how GM told him it was just the nature of the beast--LOL My 2011 5.7 had 300,000 miles with 1mm rings and didn't burn a drop, just had a flat cam from a roller tht stopped rolling. They use good oil control combined with the thin rings to help efficency and combine that without carbs dumping excess fuel bore wear is almost gone. As you have pointed out HRD--VERY hard to beat a quality modern thin ring pack featuring a Napier second. In fact I have used Mahle's 1mm/1mm/2mm in an oil burning LS7 7.0L and while I was worried at first--that engine ceased all oil consumption issues and picked up power at the tires. Also worth noting is the recommended piston clearances from Mahle Motorsports .0025-.0035" -Love those piston kits. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: RAMM]
#2518502
07/06/18 05:42 PM
07/06/18 05:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Like I've said, I've personally used so many sets of these rings SURE YOU HAVE and not had a single issue that I find it hard to believe everyone can't get them to seal. It's a freaking ring. It doesn't know it's gapless. It actually does if it becomes unloaded under high vacuum due to pressure build up between it and the second
I finish all my bores with a 400 finish and hit it with a brush for 8 strokes. Without having the honing book in front of me I can't give you the exact values of the finish but IMO it's not that hard to achieve.
I also know other builders using them and I called one yesterday and he says he's not having issues either. BTW and FWIW I developed my honing procedure way back in 1995 through several phone calls with Earl Garte and several more with Smokey Yunik, since I read an article in Circle Track magazine where Smokey worked with Peterson Machine Tool (IIRC) to develop soft hone brushes. Here we go again with the namedropping huh YellowRose
I've used that finish on everything from tool steel to plain cast iron that were new old stock from 1954 and never had any issues with ring seal.
I also spent many hours on the dyno with the first 3-4 engines that I personally used them in to measure actual blow by under load. The rings every single time showed a massive improvement in blow by reduction.Who cares?
The first engine was a 400 Chevy done by another shop. It was an oil burner. You knew it had no ring seal because you couldn't keep oil in the engine. It would build crankcase pressure and blow oil out wherever it could. When it was sealed up, it would blow the dipstick out.
It was .060 and the owner wanted a new block. I talked him into letting me use gapless top rings to test them and if it didn't work he didn't have to pay for it.
I ran into him earlier this year. It's still going. Doesn't use oil. Runs as good now as the day it came off the dyno.
The moral of the story is if you can't get a ring to seal that's on you. Most rings are pre-seated before they even go into the box. Pre-seated? Never heard of this Cheap rings used to be belt lapped and the better rings were barrel lapped, although there may be a better method now.
There is no excuse for bad ring seal in this day and age. No excuse. To blame the rings is like a machinist blaming his tools for piss poor work.
I never base how I build engines on what OEM's do. I do-pretty hard to compete with billions in R&D
J.Rob Dude, we get it. You can't get rings to seal. Move along. I posted those two names because that's how I learned to do it. I didn't just make the [censored] up. Maybe, just maybe, the issue is with YOU. My junk [censored] doesn't use oil. Why can't you say that?
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: RAMM]
#2518505
07/06/18 05:57 PM
07/06/18 05:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,126 Usa
A39Coronet
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,126
Usa
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..
Last edited by A39Coronet; 06/02/19 09:31 PM. Reason: Wrong info
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2518509
07/06/18 06:17 PM
07/06/18 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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What cylinder finish has been successful with the TS "gapless" top rings? I am interested in that also. There IS some recommendations on the TS website. It makes sense because it changes with different hardness of different block/liner. Been running back cut top and second napier rings for about 8 years and all's well mostly street and several passes down the track..........No vacuum pump just a good ol pcv valve mid 9's and 6.15 in the 1/8 so far and my plugs look great as well...........12.1.1 comp 170 cranking if it matters...........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: A39Coronet]
#2518761
07/07/18 11:52 AM
07/07/18 11:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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I have them in my 451. After 215+ passes in 1.5 years, no oil consumption. So far so good. Ok so 215/4 = 54 miles give or take. Not enough mileage to really be able to tell. I have customers that put on 500-600 kms in a day road racing and driving to and from the track. You know what? They are down over a quart in that time period. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: madscientist]
#2518768
07/07/18 12:07 PM
07/07/18 12:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Dude, we get it. You can't get rings to seal. Move along. I posted those two names because that's how I learned to do it. I didn't just make the [censored] up. Maybe, just maybe, the issue is with YOU. My junk [censored] doesn't use oil. Why can't you say that?
At this point I seriously doubt you have even held a set of gapless tops in your hand. After honing hundreds if not thousands of cylinders in my 24 years in this trade I have never once had a set of rings NOT seat and consume oil UNTIL I used TotalSeal Gapless Tops which has been exactly three (3) times. All three engines consume oil at a rate that is well above normal. All three engines crank 195-210 psi and leakdown around 2-4%.BFD So what is a guy to conclude when the data stacks up like this? A piece of advice Madscientist aka YellowRose--When the data doesn't support the theory you change the theory. Not the other way around. Then again analyzing data properly is probably a challenge to a "Madscientist" . J.Rob p.s. Again I ask to anyone--Why aren't these miracle rings in every OEM piston powered ICE on earth?
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2518771
07/07/18 12:10 PM
07/07/18 12:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Yes I read that article to, what to believe? Easy--Changing dyno room conditions favouring a higher CF or there is an agenda we don't know about. Everyone selling something has an agenda in case you were wondering. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: RAMM]
#2518778
07/07/18 12:21 PM
07/07/18 12:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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With all this being said, thee best rings in TotalSeal's lineup are their AP -Advanced Profile in a .043"/.043" 3mm with a Napier second. All time favourite when I can't use a Mahle piston/ring kit. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2518880
07/07/18 04:10 PM
07/07/18 04:10 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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They do not make more HP--they do not do a thing except make leak down test look great OK they do keep alky engines that just get the bores "slobbered" with excess fuel from diluting the oil so bad but on a normal engine you are crazy to spend all that extra money for nothing!!! Plain Crazy to do so WHY?? I build hundreds of engines as fast as I can bolt them together --have for decades--and when I was near a dyno every day those rings proved NOTHING or we would be using them----Ok Mahle has a new 1.0mm, 1.0mm, 2.0 mm ring package that makes more HP --OK......That is IF you guys can get those rings in the bore without ruining a set then having to order another set at great cost and the so what?? You gain a few HP??? Who cares??? Use an old 1/6th. 3/16th package and it will run for decades and is easy to install and cheap and if you need 3-7HP that bad you have built the wrong combo to start with
The Mahle rings are very difficult to install correctly even for us that do it every day you have to PAY ATTENTION and a tapered ring funnel is a MUST the you have to watch the oil film up and down the bore to make sure you have not screwed one up--"sometimes" engine builders do not need that kind of obstacle at home so the Mahle package is not a positive IMO for average Joe at home It gives them a selling point OK? It gives the once in a while builder a Headache
Gapless rings are sold with BS Hype--that is mostly not true and you wind up paying $275 for a set of rings where a std set at $55 will do just fine
You run an alky drag engine say with a Hilborn or blower well then they help you save your oil for two or three more rounds --I run one I know that is a big plus but that is the best thing these rings do
Gapless rings make a leak down test look like a winner but at 8200 RPM they don't make one more HP IMO and based on dyno runs I saw for years in week after week testing
Snap out of it
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2518886
07/07/18 04:31 PM
07/07/18 04:31 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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Guys There ARE applications for gapless rings but I would say that 98% of folka on Moparts that are building a few engines for muscle cars driven on the street or being raced do NOT need them at all and will fall to the sales hype BS and buy some at great expense only to be fooled and get nothing in return vs $$ spent--TRUST your engine builder--if he wants them then by all means trust him but if you go in and ask for them then poor you paying all that $$ for nothing We build some really fast engines for ourselves and friends on the CHEAP by using "cracked cranks" and scuffed pistons and used cams, valve springs, even used rings ( I know crazy right?) etc even used oil pumps--because even though I could have the best of the best I can run fast with "junk" and do it to prove a point and...because after you start one up it is all used parts
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: RAMM]
#2519009
07/07/18 11:01 PM
07/07/18 11:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Dude, we get it. You can't get rings to seal. Move along. I posted those two names because that's how I learned to do it. I didn't just make the [censored] up. Maybe, just maybe, the issue is with YOU. My junk [censored] doesn't use oil. Why can't you say that?
At this point I seriously doubt you have even held a set of gapless tops in your hand. After honing hundreds if not thousands of cylinders in my 24 years in this trade I have never once had a set of rings NOT seat and consume oil UNTIL I used TotalSeal Gapless Tops which has been exactly three (3) times. All three engines consume oil at a rate that is well above normal. All three engines crank 195-210 psi and leakdown around 2-4%.BFD So what is a guy to conclude when the data stacks up like this? A piece of advice Madscientist aka YellowRose--When the data doesn't support the theory you change the theory. Not the other way around. Then again analyzing data properly is probably a challenge to a "Madscientist" . J.Rob p.s. Again I ask to anyone--Why aren't these miracle rings in every OEM piston powered ICE on earth? Now you are exposing your ignorance. I've used way more than you have. You can't get a ring to seal and that's the rings fault? Ok.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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