Finish the coupe!!!!!

My son is dealing with an original frame and suspension on a 57 Dodge wagon. If power steering is, or will be in play, do a Dakota clip. The original power steering is an unusual system that only fits a few years, and has little road feel. If you car has manual steering and you want to add power, you will have to deal with the original setup.

This day and age, finding a good Dakota donor that can still be converted to 5 bolt wheels (88-96) is getting tough, and depending on your motor choice, you really have to watch the motor height for hood clearance.

Fortunately, there is a lot of documentation right here concerning these cars. Read up, it can get pretty complex. Gene

you really have to watch the motor height for hood clearance.

Neat project, (love the color).


If interested I do have a spare pair of original V8 57-58 Dodge and Plymouth frame mounts. The round motor mounts the V8 cars used are still available, but the “cans” that go on the motor can be hard to find and are different than between the Poly/Hemi motors and the B/RB engines.


SANYO DIGITAL CAMERA by M Patterson, on Flickr


If using the original frame/suspension, you will need a 57-58 center sump pan and pickup is you use a Poly/first gen Hemi.




If you go B/RB and can’t find an early passenger car pan, a later B/RB pan will work if going the Big Block route, but it may need to be notched to clear the front crossmember.


I’ve done front disc brake conversions a couple of different ways on the 57-58s. 70’s A body Disc brakes were a popular swap 15 years ago (before their were kits using the original spindles). The spindles bolt on, but the tie rods and sleeves need to be shortened and the steering stop modified. I have also used late 70s C body brakes but that is even more work and requires modification to the spindles. I’m using an old AAJ disc brake conversion on my 57 Plymouth’s original spindles and am happy with it. I not sure if AAJ is still in business, but I think Scare Bird has a similar kit.


“…….If power steering is, or will be in play, do a Dakota clip……”

I absolutely agree with poorboy. If I was just starting to build my 57 Plymouth (or the old 440 powered 57 Coronet I used to have) now it would definitely be getting a later modle front frame clip.


The original steering boxes, both manual and especially power boxes suck on these cars. The way the box mounts and oil pan/torsion bar clearance issues make adapting something else (rack and pinion/modern steering box) very difficult is not impossible. I’m currently trying to adapt a 605 Saginaw box into my 57 Plymouth and if it is even possible, it’s going to be a lot of work.

In addition to the steering box issues, a couple of other shortcomings include:

The upper control arms are a 57-58 only item. They use very small control arm bushings that don’t like heavy engines (first gen Hemis or B/RB motor). Usually the bushings only last about 40-50K miles and are not pleasant to replace. They are also currently getting a little harder to find…..cost can run anywhere between $20 to$50 each (and you need 4).

The drag link is also a wear item due to having joints on the outer ends. You can still find these rebuilt, but they are not real cheap.

Old Ray,When I moved the motor & trans back on the Dakota frame in my coupe, I bolted in a 1/4" thick plate to the frame (on each side) where the original motor mount bracket bolted to, and then drilled holes and bolted the motor mount brackets to the 1/4" plate.

I think an FMJ clip would be and absolute nightmare on one of these cars. The track width would be petty wide, and you would have to cut everything ahead of the firewall off. At that point, you might as well do a Dakota clip and get a more modern suspension.

Gene

Guy said it worked absolutely awesome and he had done a half dozen of them with the FMJ front crossmember, said it was THE way to go. The guy who did it had tried Dakotas under these cars. He said the FMJ conversion was much preferred ...?

.....if it's that great why is it for sale ?

Well then I must be doing the right thing because that is exactly what I am doing. Mostly by accident, the only plate I had that was big enough was some 1/4 inch. I did the pass side this morning, drivers side tomorrow, did you gusset or put any extra reinforcement on, especially on the drivers side? There is one extra threaded hole on the drivers side that I will use as well. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

CrAzYMoPaRGuy, I suppose there may be advantages in cutting everything off the front and building mostly new. It can't be much worse dealing with the obsolete FMJ crossmember then its getting to be dealing with the 25+ year old 1st gen Dakota.

I was surprised how few choices of some parts (like brake pads) were available for the 5 bolt Dakotas a few weeks ago, when I bought the stuff for my new project. Gene

CrAzYMoPaRGuy, I don't suppose you have or could get pictures of the Plymouth with the 5th Ave suspension? If not could you get me contact info for the guy?

In my mind if I can't make the 605 Steering box conversion I'm trying to work out it might be an option to look at for my Plymouth.


I did a 5th Ave conversion on a 52 F1 pickup many years ago and happy with the results.

CrAzYMoPaRGuy, I don't suppose you have or could get pictures of the Plymouth with the 5th Ave suspension? If not could you get me contact info for the guy?

I did a 5th Ave conversion on a 52 F1 pickup many years ago and happy with the results.

Neat project, (love the color).


If interested I do have a spare pair of original V8 57-58 Dodge and Plymouth frame mounts. The round motor mounts the V8 cars used are still available, but the “cans” that go on the motor can be hard to find and are different than between the Poly/Hemi motors and the B/RB engines.


SANYO DIGITAL CAMERA by M Patterson, on Flickr


If using the original frame/suspension, you will need a 57-58 center sump pan and pickup is you use a Poly/first gen Hemi.




If you go B/RB and can’t find an early passenger car pan, a later B/RB pan will work if going the Big Block route, but it may need to be notched to clear the front crossmember.


I’ve done front disc brake conversions a couple of different ways on the 57-58s. 70’s A body Disc brakes were a popular swap 15 years ago (before their were kits using the original spindles). The spindles bolt on, but the tie rods and sleeves need to be shortened and the steering stop modified. I have also used late 70s C body brakes but that is even more work and requires modification to the spindles. I’m using an old AAJ disc brake conversion on my 57 Plymouth’s original spindles and am happy with it. I not sure if AAJ is still in business, but I think Scare Bird has a similar kit.


“…….If power steering is, or will be in play, do a Dakota clip……”

I absolutely agree with poorboy. If I was just starting to build my 57 Plymouth (or the old 440 powered 57 Coronet I used to have) now it would definitely be getting a later modle front frame clip.


The original steering boxes, both manual and especially power boxes suck on these cars. The way the box mounts and oil pan/torsion bar clearance issues make adapting something else (rack and pinion/modern steering box) very difficult is not impossible. I’m currently trying to adapt a 605 Saginaw box into my 57 Plymouth and if it is even possible, it’s going to be a lot of work.

In addition to the steering box issues, a couple of other shortcomings include:

The upper control arms are a 57-58 only item. They use very small control arm bushings that don’t like heavy engines (first gen Hemis or B/RB motor). Usually the bushings only last about 40-50K miles and are not pleasant to replace. They are also currently getting a little harder to find…..cost can run anywhere between $20 to$50 each (and you need 4).

The drag link is also a wear item due to having joints on the outer ends. You can still find these rebuilt, but they are not real cheap.

A word of advice on the on the steering gear. Regardless of the mileage on the gear send it out to be rebuilt before you install it. You sure don't want to have to pull it back out after you get the interior installed (The gear column and all have to be removed thru the floor into the passenger compartment.

As far as a PS pump there are 2 easy options as far as pump and bracket. One is the older TRW pump....as I recall the pressure is listed as being a little higher than the original pump but it will be fine.

The other option is using the newer brackets and a Saginaw pump. The majority of Saginaw pumps are made for the integral steering gear and has considerably higher pressure than the early Mopar gear is designed for. The trick is to spec a pump for a 70s Corvette with the slave cylinder power steering. Those pumps operate at a lower pressure and should work well with the early Mopar gear.

A couple of other things come to mind if you're using the original front suspension. 57-8 Chrysler Windsor torsion bars will fit under the 57-58 Dodge and Plymouths and are a bit more HD that the stock bars. Factory front sway bars are kind of rare on 57-58 Dodge and Plymouths. If you come across one they were standard on the 57-8 Imperials and will fit the Dodges and Plymouths (I suspect sway bars from Chryslers of that era will also fit). You will need to either cut off the frame brackets or fabricate some (I can send you pictures of the ones I built for my 57 Plymouth if you need them).

Nice score for sure

Kevin, not very good for two reasons.

1. The CV front track is too wide for most applications and uses a weird offset wheel.

2. The original poster appears to be very set on using some kind of early torsion bar suspension (I think).

And I bet it will drive fine. My 58 Plymouth with the 518,Fury bars,avg kyb shocks, 15x7 rims w/225/70/15's was fine on trips where I drove at 75+ for miles. Mine was a wagon and when the roof would start oilcanning that was my govener, probably over 100.

".........I ended up going with the original 58 front end, rebuilding it all and throwing on some Wilwoods all four corners........"

".........And I bet it will drive fine........."

For what it's worth I agree. I like the handling and feel of the original suspension on my 57 Plymouth. My only mods were Disc brake conversion and addition of a 57/8 Imperial sway bar. I've had a 57 Dodge and my current 57 Plymouth with stock suspensions and driven both cross country and both did very well at highway speeds +.

My only complaint was the steering....the power steering has no road feel, and with a heavy engine the manual steering can be a hand full at times.

Re reading my last sentence and thinking back , I just realized I didn't mind the manual steering in the Plymouth that much when I first built the car. Of course when I first built the car 12 years ago I didn't have carpal tunnel and arthritis in my right hand and wrist either. By the way I have shelved the idea of adapting a later steering gear to my 57 Plymouth....at least for now.



Did you settle on the 440 for power? There are a lot of choices but a 440 sure makes these old boats a fun car. I went back and re-read the thread to refresh my memory and must have missed your post on the original style motor mounts.

"......... the original style might worry me because my blandest small block is a healthy hydraulic roller 360. I would probably go up from there as far as power goes and not sure I trust the original style mounts........"

Building mounts from scratch using a more modern style motor mount might a bit easier than digging up the original style. Like I said I have an original pair of V8 frame mounts, and I think the rubber part of the mounts are still available new.

You might have a problem finding the "cans" the mount slips into however, and they are different between the Poly/Hemi and 58 B motor.

FWIW from firsthand experience using the stock mounts and occasionally abusing them, they hold up fine.

This was the 440 backed with a pushbutton 65 727 in my old 57 Dodge.

And this is the 354 backed by a 4 speed in my 57 Plymouth.

Both sit on the original style mounts.

jsta FEW motor homies ? You best pic the lightest and the most aero one to stay with mine on a HIGH GEAR PRESS !

“…..I think I cruise around 80mph with blurts to 110 or so, maybe once a year a little higher...”

You cruising sounds pretty much like the driving I’ve done going from Arizona to Illinois the three times I’ve done it in my 57 Dodge and Plymouth. I guess you cruising in your Canadian built Plodge would be an average of both LOL. For me it was just too tempting not to open both cars up going across the Texas pan handle. Neither car felt unsafe at 110+ MPH.

The Plymouth of course is the manual steering car with sway bar and the Dodge had factory PS and no sway bar. The Dodge ran a 440 with cast iron dual quad intake while the Plymouth has the iron Hemi so I would say the engine weights were pretty close to each other. If you do elect to go with an LA engine you should be significantly lighter which would ease the effort with the manual steering box.

Both cars had/have front Disc/rear Drum brakes. Both cars run 235/70/15s on 8” rims in the back and 205/75/15s on 6” rims in the front. The 205/75s are pretty much the same height as your 215/70s but narrower which makes low speed steering a bit easier with the Plymouth. Neither car ever had a tire rub problem even when the trunk was loaded with suitcases, tools etc.

The 57 Dodge was originally a 325 Poly car and I ran the original torsion bars under the 440 with no problems. The Plymouth was an original Flat Head 6 car. I got lucky and scored a NOSR pair of 57-8 Chrysler Windsor bars for it. The stock 6 Cyl bars were pretty spindly looking compared to the V8 bars. Even though the 6 Cyl bars would probably be fine under an LA engine, if I were building your Regent I think I would definitely look for a pair (of even used) V8 bars, preferably from the Windsor. I don’t know if the 57-8 Chrysler/DeSoto are dimensionally the same as the Dodge/Plymouth but it might be worth looking into.

The Plymouth with the heavier bars and sway bar is a lot firmer than the Dodge was. I know the sway bar helps but I think a lot of the difference is also the heavier torsion bars.

The Imperial Sway was a bolt on (if you come across a 57-8 Chrysler/DeSoto with a swar bar I suspect that will also fit). The Imperial bar is the largest bar Chrysler offered, but it is only ¾”. A 1” bar would have been great but would have to be custom built.

To make the bar fit you MUST have the center links and end brackets that connect the bar to the brake reaction strut. I was able to get all new bushing for the sway bar from Andy Bernbaum.

Sway Bar by M Patterson, on Flickr


The only fabricating I had to do was build the brackets that are welded to the frame that the inner hangers connect to…..it was easier than cutting the original brackets from the donor car.

As far as the 56 Dodge PS I think you will find that it doesn’t even come close to fitting, but you never know. The 57 PS gear was a 1 year only and replaced in 58 with a “better” design. Chrysler used the same gear from 58-62 and any of those (and the 57) will fit but you will probably need the 57-8 Column tube. Seems like the turn signal switch might also be different between the manual steering and PS columns ……but it’s been too long since I played with that to remember for sure.

Anyway hope this helps.

i think you made a good choice of wheels CRaZie. those will look good on your car. can you post a side & rear pic of those installed ? i'm thinking of a different size rear tire other than a 295-50, but a side pic would confirm my thought.
unless, of course, you already have them.