Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? #2446844
02/05/18 02:14 PM
02/05/18 02:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
I'm replacing my older front spindles with '73-up so to install the 11.75" Cordoba rotors (still to buy); engine is out and won't be installed until a few months from now. I've purchased new Moog Lower Ball Joints; Upper Ball Joints still good, not loose, etc... reusing them. I've also welded the K-frame and added lower control arm reinforcement plates (all Firm Feel, etc); engine bay also re-done like new!

When I torque the UPPER BJ nut (100 ftlbs) and the LOWER BJ nut (80 ftlbs.. per my Challenger spec manual) then try to turn the spindles by hand L-R, there is a lot of effort required... doesn't seem correct... very tough to turn L-R by hand.

I had used anti-seize lube on the UBJ and LBJ studs and threads, so, disassembly was easy.... re-did the install, same results. I've noticed the UPPER BJ stud turns when I grab and turn the assembly, but the LOWER BJ stud doesn't turn.

Could the anti-seize be causing the LOWER BJ stud NOT to turn, even though its torqued to 80 ftlbs?

I had also re-greased the UBJ and LBJ with red synthetic grease, gushed out to assure enough was inside.

The UPPER BJ stud (attached by itself) allows free motion of the spindle (and not loose or wobbly), but when I attached and torque the LOWER BJ stud, that's when the problem seem to develop -- very difficult to move the spindles L-R.

Could these new LOWER BJs be bad? Why are they so tight and won't move (twist) like the UPPER BJ stud?

I'm tempted to buy another pair of LOWER BJs (perhaps Moog, again); maybe a different brand. I know for a fact that the OEM front suspension parts (BJs, tie-rods/ends, etc) were all from TRW -- they supplied the dominance of the OEM big-three suspension parts back then), but they are hard to find in the aftermarket.... Moog is pretty dominant now.

Any helpful advice or replies will be appreciated.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2446926
02/05/18 04:17 PM
02/05/18 04:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,378
NorCal
RylisPro Offline
top fuel
RylisPro  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,378
NorCal
Hey Mitch,
I have a set of brand new unused Moog LBJ's that I keep as spares. I'll report back if they spin like my Howe UBJ's. I remember that the Moog LBJ's and UBJ's were tight when brand new, unlike the Howe which is buttery smooth. I forgot if the LBJ's spin around though?


[IMG]https://i.imgbox.com/OFxZscZe.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgbox.com/hUS4EVKz.gif[/IMG] /Drive
Instagram: @rylispro
YouTube:RylisPro
www.rylispro.com
925-214-9192
Tremec T56 Magnums & Quick Time bells
Billet Steel Flywheels
Prefix Performance
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2446937
02/05/18 04:46 PM
02/05/18 04:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,795
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,795
up yours
You realize that using antisieze on the threads results in substantially more effective torque than specified.

Do not substitute, or use, lubricants unless specifically called for. Unless you are capable of recalculating the required torque.

You've probably overstretched the stud.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447043
02/05/18 08:07 PM
02/05/18 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
T/Anks for both of your replies.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447087
02/05/18 09:58 PM
02/05/18 09:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,795
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,795
up yours
I did a bit of research, as a rule of thumb when using antisieze you should drop the torque value 40% compared to dry.

Here's a handy chart for reference is all else fails

http://www.alliedsystems.com/pdf/Wagner/Forms/80/80-1057.pdf


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447222
02/06/18 01:04 AM
02/06/18 01:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,976
Reno, Nevada
NV69B7RR Offline
master
NV69B7RR  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,976
Reno, Nevada
I just got some Moog LBJ's for my Demon and they have a lot of resistance, they don't move freely.

Do they normally come with blue grease in them from Moog?

Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Supercuda] #2447323
02/06/18 12:14 PM
02/06/18 12:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,515
north of coder
moparx Offline
Dreaming of implants
moparx  Offline
Dreaming of implants

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,515
north of coder
thank you for posting that chart link. i had one at one time, but it didn't include the metric information.
beer

Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Supercuda] #2447396
02/06/18 03:07 PM
02/06/18 03:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Yes... Thanks for the chart.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: NV69B7RR] #2447399
02/06/18 03:08 PM
02/06/18 03:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
I recall seeing a blue grease inside the Moog LBJ.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447431
02/06/18 04:11 PM
02/06/18 04:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 19,696
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here
Pacnorthcuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 19,696
Kirkland, Washington
I'm thinking the operation of the BJ will be affected once the suspension is loaded.

Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447795
02/07/18 12:28 AM
02/07/18 12:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
I phoned the Moog tech line today.... spoke with Jerry. He commented that the usage of the anti-seize on the studs and threading should not have made any difference to the functioning of the ball joint. He said the studs of the ball joints are tough and rather stiff, but they will loosen and become more free as the car is used. The studs should twist L-R as the spindle is also turned L-R.

I'm going to disassemble the BJs and clean-up the anti-seize, anyway, and re-torque carefully. Also, I'll see if the LBJ can be moved by disconnecting the UBJ first, then leveraging the spindle so to see if the LBJ stud will actually move. If I'm not pleased, I may just go ahead and purchase/replace again the LBJs.

One other thing, when I first torqued the passenger side together, I was torquing with the tall rubber snubber (under the the UCA), which I have extended the height, against the UCA, in other words, the rubber snubber was being compressed as I tightened the spindle upper and lower nuts... possibly making the effort tighter.... and that's the spindle assembly with much more friction making it difficult to turn L-R. However, when I re-did it without the snubber, it made no difference.

Then, when I did the driver's side, I didn't install the extended rubber snubber, so, it was easier to torque the nuts.... less friction overall turning the spindle L-R.

So, maybe I may just need to replace the passenger side LCA... ;possibly it was extensively over-tightened within its guts.

Learning lessons! I'll let everyone know of the final outcome.

T/Anks!

Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 02/07/18 12:30 AM.

Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2447982
02/07/18 01:17 PM
02/07/18 01:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 409
Los Osos, Ca
C
CKessel Offline
mopar
CKessel  Offline
mopar
C

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 409
Los Osos, Ca
Keep an eye out for different stud lengths on the ball joints, even with the oe replacement stuff. I've been seeing a trend for awhile now where the stud length is not the same as what was removed and you now have to stack washers under the nuts to get the cotter pin hole to line up with the castle nut slot. Both the tapered portion of the stud and the straight portion have been changed. When I was at SEMA, I talked to the rep from ProForged about this and he verified that the companies, his included, have consolidated a lot of stud differences and use one stud to fit many more applications as opposed to being the correct length. Changes in the stud length can change your geometries plus can cause binding issues if the joint hits other components.


Carl Kessel
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2448632
02/08/18 06:22 PM
02/08/18 06:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,378
NorCal
RylisPro Offline
top fuel
RylisPro  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,378
NorCal
Here is my brand new Moog LBJ's.



Super tight from the factory. Not able to turn them L-R, front to back easily at all. I would just run those LBJ's Mitch! Should not be a problem.
The middle pic also shows the type of dust boot to run with ball joints as they have an inner metal ring that helps hold the grease in place.

Also while the engine is out Mitch, slap in a Gen3 with a six-speed to replace it!


[IMG]https://i.imgbox.com/OFxZscZe.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgbox.com/hUS4EVKz.gif[/IMG] /Drive
Instagram: @rylispro
YouTube:RylisPro
www.rylispro.com
925-214-9192
Tremec T56 Magnums & Quick Time bells
Billet Steel Flywheels
Prefix Performance
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: RylisPro] #2449150
02/09/18 05:03 PM
02/09/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
RylisPro -- T/Aanks for the effort you've offered. Those rubber boots were a bit difficult to install so to grasp in-place.

Gen3 and 6spd.. sure!


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2449155
02/09/18 05:16 PM
02/09/18 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,839
central texas
K
krautrock Offline
top fuel
krautrock  Offline
top fuel
K

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,839
central texas
those lower boots, i used my upper ball joint socket and a hammer to tap the boots onto the lip of the LBJ body.

Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2450346
02/11/18 10:51 PM
02/11/18 10:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 733
Toronto, Ont, Canada
boydsdodge Offline
super stock
boydsdodge  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 733
Toronto, Ont, Canada
I opened a box O Ball joints, yep very stiff just as a remember.
But I have not hat the stud turn in the control arm.

Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2466367
03/14/18 02:09 PM
03/14/18 02:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 799
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp Offline
super stock
Secret Chimp  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 799
Eugene, Oregon
I had to log in to ask about this because it sounded so wrong to me... why would you ever want to see a ball joint stud twist after installation?

Doesn't that mean the stud isn't actually seated in the spindle taper?

I was pretty dead sure stud is supposed to stay in place until you take the nut off and knock it loose from the spindle taper, at least that's how I've been operating for years.


1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon

1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
Re: LOWER BALL JOINT -- HIGH FRICTION? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2466428
03/14/18 03:52 PM
03/14/18 03:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline OP
super stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,086
NW Chicago suburban area
I re-did the problem side that was super stiff (bought another new LBJ). and this time I didn't tighten it against the extended rubber snubber... now A-OK... same as the other side.. both same with minor friction. It looks to me as though I over-tightened that one stud.. appears possibly bent.

So, a learning lesson to me.

T/Anks for the replies to all! Forward motion on the re-assembly of the car! Engine has been brought to a shop for prepping.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!

Advertisement
Forum Statistics
Forums32
Topics194,382
Posts2,269,921
Members25,836
Most Online1,424
Jun 20th, 2018
Moparts Newest Topics
2007 Ram 1500 Transmission shift control module
by Frankenduster. 04/19/19 12:04 AM
71 Challenger taillights
by evenflow. 04/18/19 10:42 PM
New Reproduction Exhaust Bracketso
by Tom Swope. 04/18/19 10:20 PM
Manual Steering box
by mopar68. 04/18/19 10:03 PM

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1