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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Mattax] #2464283
03/10/18 02:27 PM
03/10/18 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.


Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to.

Originally Posted By Bad340fish
.... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol.


Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly.


I didn't take it so personal myself but saying Braswell, Mark W and any top builders don't know how emulsion works is about as far out there as all of Arrogant Andy's 900+ hp motors..........You are an ex engineer Andy so maybe you should stick to that and it's VERY obvious why you didn't take the THUMPER EFI challenge cos you wouldn't have 1/2 the nut swingers you do now following your bs..........I don't claim to know it all but MOST of my results are good and I try and stay humble and learn as much as I can and ALWAYS answer the phone to help out when I can so there you go boy............What's really funny is that you NEVER defend yourself because you are that fing arrogant and I'm not politically wimpy correct so let this lay where it will......... beer

Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/10/18 02:28 PM.

72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: BradH] #2464870
03/11/18 07:16 PM
03/11/18 07:16 PM
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dartman366 Offline OP
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the only other thing I found was the Transition slot jetting had been blowed out and I am fixing that problem according to thumpers instructions, just need to order some brass set screws from Fastenal here in town or from Mcmaster Carr then drill them accordingly.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465075
03/12/18 03:28 AM
03/12/18 03:28 AM
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If there's enuff material there, drill n tap for 8-32 set screws and start at .055 and go up or down as needed but w/out an afr gauge it's a guessing game and LOTS of trial an error..........Good talking to you and if you do what we discussed you should be pretty close then salt to taste........ thumbs


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: BradH] #2465284
03/12/18 04:49 PM
03/12/18 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted By BradH
... a research paper from the 1960s that a group of Japanese engineers did that covers extensive computer modeling vs test results from an experimental carburetor on... emulsion. The correlation between them was very good.

I have a hard copy, but will see if I can find the link and post it.

No luck finding the link to the research paper mentioned above. I'll update this thread, if I do. scope

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Thumperdart] #2465488
03/12/18 10:36 PM
03/12/18 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted By Thumperdart
If there's enuff material there, drill n tap for 8-32 set screws and start at .055 and go up or down as needed but w/out an afr gauge it's a guessing game and LOTS of trial an error..........Good talking to you and if you do what we discussed you should be pretty close then salt to taste........ thumbs
took the press in jets out the main body and checked and there is enough meat to make it work with 8-32"s, just ordered the brass set screws today from Fastenal, probably get on it this weekend and give you a call back when I get ready to screw this thing together just to make sure I have covered everything. I have a innovate lm-2 and going to get a couple of new SD cards and a second o2 sensor so I can read both banks, thanks for the info and insights, it was good to talk to you also, I feel a whole lot better about this pile of parts on my bench now up


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465538
03/12/18 11:26 PM
03/12/18 11:26 PM
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I love helping people out as others have done for me and you will get a good grasp and understanding of all of the circuits even the EMULSION that no one but Tuner seems to understand.......... drinking


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Thumperdart] #2465660
03/13/18 10:07 AM
03/13/18 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.


Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to.

Originally Posted By Bad340fish
.... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol.


Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly.


I didn't take it so personal myself but saying Braswell, Mark W and any top builders don't know how emulsion works is about as far out there as all of Arrogant Andy's 900+ hp motors..........You are an ex engineer Andy so maybe you should stick to that and it's VERY obvious why you didn't take the THUMPER EFI challenge cos you wouldn't have 1/2 the nut swingers you do now following your bs..........I don't claim to know it all but MOST of my results are good and I try and stay humble and learn as much as I can and ALWAYS answer the phone to help out when I can so there you go boy............What's really funny is that you NEVER defend yourself because you are that fing arrogant and I'm not politically wimpy correct so let this lay where it will......... beer


I suspect andy f is being paid either directly or indirectly for the promotion of EFI, as of late he consistently points out his unproven assessment that EFI is superior to a properly tuned carb.
(it is not yet and likely never will with the exception of cold to warm street drivability)

Last edited by Harry's Taxi 2; 03/13/18 10:08 AM.

'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.

NOS-used when losing since 1940.

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465672
03/13/18 10:51 AM
03/13/18 10:51 AM
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As to my comments on this thread, which only further inflamed things it seems:

1. I have been helped greatly by many here.
Over 30 years away from cars/ racing and catching up as been both exciting and difficult .
The folks here have been incredibly helpful.

2. It’s in my nature to to see the best in folks, help resolve conflicts etc. I certainly should have realized with a forum this size and been around this long, there would be a few issues/ conflicts of opinion etc.

3. I’m a guy that thrives on “ think tank” type differences in thinking that usually produce excellent problem solving - I did not realize this thread contained more than that.

4. I’m so far behind in so many areas- emulsion certainly being one- I should have kept my mouth shut .

5. Andy has been helpful to me as has Dwayne , Thumper, Cab, Cm and so many others .
Please forgive my attempt at “ benefit of doubt “ causing greater inflammation .

I appreciate you all- more than you can imagine.

This Moparts team has saved me countless funds, time, mistakes - your really invaluable to many folks - truly .

Just thought you should know that on the wider scales of things- this digital shop makes a real difference because of all of you- differences not withstanding.

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: RustyM] #2465778
03/13/18 02:22 PM
03/13/18 02:22 PM
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Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By RustyM
As to my comments on this thread, which only further inflamed things it seems:
...

Rusty, No apology needed.
I'm glad you posted what you did.
A. If you and bad340fish hadn't said anything, then you might still be thinking this area is a matter of unknown variables with lots of opinions. It was an opportunity to set the record straight. BradH summed it up so well:
Quote:
"Guys... it's science, not magic. It doesn't always do what we THINK it will, but it is reasonably predictable if you understand why. Part of why it's not as simple in the real world is the number of variables that influence it."
It takes experience and a bit of an art to stay within the stable range and reduce the number of trials, but it is all grounded known principles. Guys like Dom, BradH, Tuner, Mark W, Shrinker (RIP) and others have all been willing to share the parameters and approaches which have worked (or not) to make it easier for us.

B. There was no way for you and many others to know how insulting Andy's statement was. Sure, if you read the link and poked around RFS, MSV, YB and ST, it might have become apparent. But most guys here aren't doing that. AndyF has been helpful to me on occassion. I appreciate that. I left my response wide open for him to say it was inadvertent.

If you like a "think tank" atmosphere, I'll encourage you to spend some time checking out the RFS forum for carbs, FI, and ignition related discussions.

Last edited by Mattax; 03/13/18 06:19 PM.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465818
03/13/18 03:27 PM
03/13/18 03:27 PM
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Will check that out Mattax- thanks!
Do indeed enjoy the “ think tank” type work - good for the grey matter .

Talked to the Local carb tuner and- have a better grasp now as he stated similar to Brad.
The math is the math.
The problem he stated ( if I got it this time ) is that we are often dealing with less than precision instruments ( carbs) which carb tunes try to rectify and then all the variables of fuels/ air quality etc.

Thus some see this area as “ magic “ while those dealing with the science are dealing with math and- headaches- grin.

He also stated- Carbs are funny things because they go on engines and engines are funny thing because people build them- we don’t get cookie cutter constants and that’s why we get to make a living .

That’s pretty close- best I remember anyway .

He just had one for a 1600 hp , well built engine and carb just “ wouldn’t work “ after everyone tried all they could- sent it to him.

Couldn’t find a thing wrong ,,, until he noticed the scratch “ pattern “ on baseplate.
Checked it for flat- sure enough, wasn’t .
He dyed it and measured- someone had taken a sanding belt to it!
12 thou milled off later- great carb!

Magic?
Nope .

Math and attention to detail?
Yep.


Btw- am I The last guy on here to see “ Thumper carbs “ on Facebook ?

Sheesh - sweet .
Take me another few days to study that page - some really nice pieces there.

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465834
03/13/18 03:57 PM
03/13/18 03:57 PM
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Mattax Offline
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beer

Along the lines of your guy's comment;one point Shrinker made is that a well designed e-bleed system allows more latitude for variations in engines than a solid fuel carb (he should know he made such carbs for his customers).

If you're up for another way of approaching carburetion
Originally Posted By "Shrinker"
.. think of an engine as a machine to raise the energy level of a fuel to as high as possible prior to initiating controlled combustion. That sentence really needs thinking about. If you approach an engine that way it opens a whole new way of thinking...
A little teaser from
"Emulsion" posted at MSV

It sounds very brainy, but just being aware of it I found is helpful.

Last edited by Mattax; 03/13/18 04:04 PM.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465843
03/13/18 04:10 PM
03/13/18 04:10 PM
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: RustyM] #2465847
03/13/18 04:18 PM
03/13/18 04:18 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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To be honest, my carb tuning skills need to be stepped up quite a bit. At times it doesn't feel as if I'm much beyond "If it goes faster with bigger jets, it must be tuned right". What I thought I "knew" about setting up baseline tunes for my carbs last fall sure didn't prove itself well on the dyno, but it gave me a bunch of new questions and approaches to consider. Getting to use a wideband 02 on my car with my carbs should be a learning experience.

Also, I did locate the research paper I'd mentioned above here:

"Effects of Air-Bleed Systems on Carburettor Performance"
Yasuke ASANO, Toshitaka CHUMA, Heiichiro HAGA, Tadahiro MOCHIDA

Overview: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsme1958/11/46/11_46_691/_article

Download: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsme1958/11/46/11_46_691/_pdf/-char/en


It turns out there is also a "sequel", although I haven't found a copy that's been translated into English. Even though it's still in Japanese, I'm going to see if I can make any sense of the diagrams since they're presented in a similar manner to those in the original paper.

"Effects of Multihole Air-Bleed Systems on Carburettor Performance"
Yasuke ASANO, Ichiro ISOBE

Overview: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kikai1938/37/297/37_297_1026/_article

Download: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kikai1938/37/297/37_297_1026/_pdf/-char/en >> IN JAPANESE <<

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465958
03/13/18 07:29 PM
03/13/18 07:29 PM
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brad: What wide-band system are you going to use?

Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: RustyM] #2465963
03/13/18 07:40 PM
03/13/18 07:40 PM
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dartman366 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By RustyM
As to my comments on this thread, which only further inflamed things it seems:

1. I have been helped greatly by many here.
Over 30 years away from cars/ racing and catching up as been both exciting and difficult .
The folks here have been incredibly helpful.

2. It’s in my nature to to see the best in folks, help resolve conflicts etc. I certainly should have realized with a forum this size and been around this long, there would be a few issues/ conflicts of opinion etc.

3. I’m a guy that thrives on “ think tank” type differences in thinking that usually produce excellent problem solving - I did not realize this thread contained more than that.

4. I’m so far behind in so many areas- emulsion certainly being one- I should have kept my mouth shut .

5. Andy has been helpful to me as has Dwayne , Thumper, Cab, Cm and so many others .
Please forgive my attempt at “ benefit of doubt “ causing greater inflammation .

I appreciate you all- more than you can imagine.

This Moparts team has saved me countless funds, time, mistakes - your really invaluable to many folks - truly .

Just thought you should know that on the wider scales of things- this digital shop makes a real difference because of all of you- differences not withstanding.


I can say I agree with everything you said here with the exception of your comment about being inflametory, some times things typed on a computer is misconstrued and /or misunderstood because tone of voice is missing and also facial or body language is not seen either, which make's it easier to understand how the person intended for the comment to be taken, is that what happened here? don't know, maybe, maybe not, but to me its over and in the past, I am glad it didn't kill the post like so many times before, so to me I see where you did NO wrong and maybe we all can learn some technical stuff. up


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366] #2465972
03/13/18 07:54 PM
03/13/18 07:54 PM
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When you type something end it with lol or one of these up then you can always deny it. Lol.


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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: pittsburghracer] #2466025
03/13/18 09:17 PM
03/13/18 09:17 PM
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Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!!


416 stroker from Nick at Compu-flow. 11.14 in full street trim. Seems like a new best every time out.
11.06 open headers----so far!!
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: G-Money1320] #2466041
03/13/18 09:44 PM
03/13/18 09:44 PM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By G-Money1320
Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!!
I believe you are correct but I wish the phone connection was better and I didn't have to make him repeat so many times, don't know what was going on there. shruggy


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: G-Money1320] #2466116
03/13/18 11:40 PM
03/13/18 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted By G-Money1320
Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!!


beer

Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/14/18 01:14 PM.

72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: RustyM] #2466120
03/13/18 11:45 PM
03/13/18 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted By RustyM
Will check that out Mattax- thanks!
Do indeed enjoy the “ think tank” type work - good for the grey matter .

Talked to the Local carb tuner and- have a better grasp now as he stated similar to Brad.
The math is the math.
The problem he stated ( if I got it this time ) is that we are often dealing with less than precision instruments ( carbs) which carb tunes try to rectify and then all the variables of fuels/ air quality etc.

Thus some see this area as “ magic “ while those dealing with the science are dealing with math and- headaches- grin.

He also stated- Carbs are funny things because they go on engines and engines are funny thing because people build them- we don’t get cookie cutter constants and that’s why we get to make a living .

That’s pretty close- best I remember anyway .

He just had one for a 1600 hp , well built engine and carb just “ wouldn’t work “ after everyone tried all they could- sent it to him.

Couldn’t find a thing wrong ,,, until he noticed the scratch “ pattern “ on baseplate.
Checked it for flat- sure enough, wasn’t .
He dyed it and measured- someone had taken a sanding belt to it!
12 thou milled off later- great carb!

Magic?
Nope .

Math and attention to detail?
Yep.


Btw- am I The last guy on here to see “ Thumper carbs “ on Facebook ?

Sheesh - sweet .
Take me another few days to study that page - some really nice pieces there.


That page is ok but the page I'm on most and chat through is Dominic Thumper but I appreciate the props and the ONLY reason I got a bit crazy is because of the insults by someone who has no clue. I don't and refuse to take jabs from anyone who doesn't know me or who doesn't know jack about their statements and MOST guys on here ROCK w/a few douche nuggets sprinkled in for good measure.............enjoy....... beer

Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/13/18 11:46 PM.

72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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