Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439269
01/22/18 11:49 PM
01/22/18 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,203 Oregon
AndyF
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Not a waste of money at all. I run a low deck 512 in my B body car. It has ported Edelbrock heads and HP cast iron manifolds. The trick is getting the right cam ground for the engine. You don't want a lot of overlap with the manifolds.
Another thing to consider is going with EFI. EFI also works great with less overlap so the two work well together. You can build a really smooth quiet engine that will pull like a freight train. Make it 500 inches with ported aluminum heads, cast iron manifolds and EFI.
Last edited by AndyF; 01/22/18 11:52 PM.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: AndyF]
#2439304
01/23/18 12:34 AM
01/23/18 12:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Trick stuff Andy. what is the OD of the ex pipes?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439563
01/23/18 02:53 PM
01/23/18 02:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I would suggest defining exactly what the goals for the build are, then determine if all the parameters can be met within the budget....... Without using headers.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking it will make just as much power without the headers....... It won't.
I've dynoed quite a few FAST builds, and I can tell you that's really the hard way to try and make power.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439704
01/23/18 08:07 PM
01/23/18 08:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
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Don't fall into the trap of thinking it will make just as much power without the headers....... It won't. This^^^
Better heads: definitely, more flow without extending cam duration.
What will help, but it's a PITA (if you can fit them at all): 1" thick steel exhaust flange as a spacer between the manifolds and the head (with longer studs). If you can't water-jet etc. you could use 3 X 3/8" common flanges each side. 1. straighter path for gas leaving the port before the turn 2. more volume inside the casting 3. keeps the pulses separated longer before merge Yes, 6" thick would be better, but...
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: AndyF]
#2439706
01/23/18 08:10 PM
01/23/18 08:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338 Montreal Quebec
STROKIE
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[quote=AndyF]Not a waste of money at all. I run a low deck 512 in my B body car. It has ported Edelbrock heads and HP cast iron manifolds. The trick is getting the right cam ground for the engine. You don't want a lot of overlap with the manifolds. Can I ask you for a suggestion for a roller cam with cast iron manifolds (lot of overlap)... My 451 with 3.23 rear end street tires 1967 Charger run 109.26 12.87 with stock Magnum cam and I wish go roller cam with manifolds Thanks https://youtu.be/tt-x-_3jjmE
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: STROKIE]
#2439756
01/23/18 10:19 PM
01/23/18 10:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 259 Scatchamatoon
Saskabusa
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Can I ask you for a suggestion for a roller cam with cast iron manifolds (lot of overlap)... My 451 with 3.23 rear end street tires 1967 Charger run 109.26 12.87 with stock Magnum cam and I wish go roller cam with manifolds Thanks https://youtu.be/tt-x-_3jjmE I have a 67 Charger with a 451 low deck. Unported Stealth heads SD intake and 74 magnum exhaust manifolds and TTI head pipes. The cam is a comp 308 roller The car has ladder bars with 4500 stall and 4.1 gears. It ran 12.0 @ 111 mph I didn't run it very much in this configuration. I quickly installed a set of hooker competition headers. It has ran a best of 11.53@116 after a little bit of tuning with headers. I never drove it on the street so I am not sure what its manners are like. It seems fine in the pits, starts really well. This was not the best choice but it was what I had.
1974 Roadrunner
1967 Charger
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439770
01/23/18 10:40 PM
01/23/18 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,526 Michigan
MarkZ
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I hate long tubes headers, but discovered I wasn't a fan of exhaust manifolds either - they really do make it a PITA to reach the plugs. I ended up having a set of shorty headers custom made with 1 7/8" primary tubes and 3" outlets. Couldn't be happier.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439772
01/23/18 10:42 PM
01/23/18 10:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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The FAST motors I've tested were all serious underachievers when considering the amount of time, effort, and $$$ invested. That's just the nature of the beast with those things, and a build not required to be legal for the class would certainly be able to bring the numbers up a bit by not having to use the stock heads and intake manifolds. However, running the non-scavanging exhaust manifolds does impose some limits on the parts choices.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2439833
01/24/18 01:09 AM
01/24/18 01:09 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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It does not sound like the OP is suggesting or hoping to match header power with manifolds.
My junk is pretty simple. 120 mph at 4150 lb in a car with basically a stock factory suspension. Seems like okay power to me. If it were any faster I'd need a roll bar, and that is not going to happen. It will drive through the neighbor at 1100 rpm in third gear with no problem.
I did choose to purchase a roller cam, but here is what I did not have to purchase: headers, starter, 3" exhaust, converter, gear, tires.
Certainly not the fastest car around, but I wish I had a dollar for every header car I've spanked.
Personally, I would not put headers on a from scratch build unless I was also planning to install a roll bar.
As mentioned, it is a matter of what the OPs goals are.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2439871
01/24/18 02:44 AM
01/24/18 02:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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TTI has 3" headpipes for the b-body manifolds. I have some. Nice thick flanges.
You will need the manifold casting numbers to get the correct pipes. Thank you, I will check their site.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2440145
01/24/18 05:43 PM
01/24/18 05:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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I hope you're only talking about exhaust manifolds. Extrude honing has fallen out of favor. The results aren't worth the price. I'm guessing a cost of between $50 and $100 per horsepower. https://boneheadperformance.com/extrude-honing/extrude-hone-pricing/As famous engine builder Joe Sherman said, "It is a total big waste of money==TOO BAD". Increasing flow in the cylinder head allows one to use a smaller camshaft for the same power. Getting air into the engine is more difficult than getting it out because less pressure available to push it in than to push it out. So good heads will always help. Making the engine bigger may not increase the horsepower if the engine is flow-limited, but it does move the torque curve down the rpm scale and thus the vehicle feels much stronger. So for a street driven vehicle, assuming you can get grip, the larger engine will always feel more powerful. Alternately, you can decrease the gear ratio and keep the vehicle feeling the same. R.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2440404
01/25/18 03:51 AM
01/25/18 03:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma
Von
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Bsb...
I've always felt your combo is one of the most impressive combos on this board.👍👍
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: bobby66]
#2440498
01/25/18 12:40 PM
01/25/18 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,526 Michigan
MarkZ
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How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat? You don't. I kept frying the #7 plug boot. It was my own stupid fault for buying Edelbrock heads. I knew there was better heads on the market with straight plugs. In the end this was my solution: Shorty headers as I didn't want the headache of long tubes. Decided to have them made out of stainless while I was at it.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2440507
01/25/18 01:02 PM
01/25/18 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Edelbrock E Street 84cc heads have straight plugs.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: bobby66]
#2440544
01/25/18 02:05 PM
01/25/18 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,203 Oregon
AndyF
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How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat? I used the Mopar 452 heads (straight plug version of the Edelbrocks). There is a lot more clearance with the straight plug heads. Previously I had run the angle plug heads and had problems burning up one or two of the spark plug leads so I switched heads. What you really want from a clearance standpoint is an angle plug head on the driver side and a straight plug head on the pass side. That would work the best for the spark plug wires.
Last edited by AndyF; 01/25/18 02:07 PM.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: AndyF]
#2440557
01/25/18 02:34 PM
01/25/18 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,843 Arlington, Texas
bobby66
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How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat? I used the Mopar 452 heads (straight plug version of the Edelbrocks). There is a lot more clearance with the straight plug heads. Previously I had run the angle plug heads and had problems burning up one or two of the spark plug leads so I switched heads. What you really want from a clearance standpoint is an angle plug head on the driver side and a straight plug head on the pass side. That would work the best for the spark plug wires. Interesting. Maybe I'll snag one 452 head for the passenger side.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Von]
#2440565
01/25/18 02:53 PM
01/25/18 02:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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Bsb...
I've always felt your combo is one of the most impressive combos on this board.👍👍 Thanks
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2440734
01/25/18 09:47 PM
01/25/18 09:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
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dogdays on point, as usual.
Shorties for street = excellent. Equal length highly over-rated for a engine with limited RPM and "warm" cam with moderate OL and wide LSA.
More trouble, more $$$, less efficient than shorties (but better than manifolds and very tight for clearance): fabrication from "weld ells".
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2443190
01/30/18 01:51 AM
01/30/18 01:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Edelbrock E Street 84cc heads have straight plugs. Are the 75cc heads angle-plug? The Edelbrock website shows angle plugs on the E-Street page, and I can't find any other pics of these heads on their website. Subscribed, as I'm building a HP manifold engine myself... Clair
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: AndyF]
#2443289
01/30/18 09:56 AM
01/30/18 09:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 291 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
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How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat? I used the Mopar 452 heads (straight plug version of the Edelbrocks). There is a lot more clearance with the straight plug heads. Previously I had run the angle plug heads and had problems burning up one or two of the spark plug leads so I switched heads. What you really want from a clearance standpoint is an angle plug head on the driver side and a straight plug head on the pass side. That would work the best for the spark plug wires. Andy, a little off the topic, but where did you get those exhaust gaskets?
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2443560
01/30/18 06:10 PM
01/30/18 06:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,819 Sobieski Wi
bee1971
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Edelbrock E Street 84cc heads have straight plugs. Are the 75cc heads angle-plug? The Edelbrock website shows angle plugs on the E-Street page, and I can't find any other pics of these heads on their website. Subscribed, as I'm building a HP manifold engine myself... Clair Yes
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2443585
01/30/18 06:54 PM
01/30/18 06:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,819 Sobieski Wi
bee1971
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Fel Pro MS90425 Exhaust Manifold Gaskets With Heat Shields
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: bee1971]
#2443595
01/30/18 07:06 PM
01/30/18 07:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Edelbrock E Street 84cc heads have straight plugs. Are the 75cc heads angle-plug? The Edelbrock website shows angle plugs on the E-Street page, and I can't find any other pics of these heads on their website. Subscribed, as I'm building a HP manifold engine myself... Clair Yes Ok, I didn’t ask that well- it looks like all the e-sreets are angle plug on the EB website, but some are clearly straight. Is the EB website wrong, and are the 84cc heads actually straight? Angle plugs don’t work with c-body hp’s and I need to go with straight plugs. Thanks, Clair
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Mr D21]
#2443608
01/30/18 07:35 PM
01/30/18 07:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I don't know if the 84cc E Street heads were always straight plug, but they are now...... And there is a foot note in the catalog saying so. The 75cc version are still angled plugs.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2443716
01/30/18 11:13 PM
01/30/18 11:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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I don't know if the 84cc E Street heads were always straight plug, but they are now...... And there is a foot note in the catalog saying so. The 75cc version are still angled plugs. Perfect, thank you! Too bad EB doesn't have that note on their e-street page - kind of important, and was going to cost them a sale. I've been banking on using the Source Stealth heads on my stock-appearing build because they were about the only straight-plug option. The USA-made E-streets also flow a little better OOTB, too. Thanks again! Clair
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Re: Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds
[Re: Harry's Taxi 2]
#2445093
02/02/18 09:23 AM
02/02/18 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,188 upstate western ny
sogtx
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How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat? I used the Mopar 452 heads (straight plug version of the Edelbrocks). There is a lot more clearance with the straight plug heads. Previously I had run the angle plug heads and had problems burning up one or two of the spark plug leads so I switched heads. What you really want from a clearance standpoint is an angle plug head on the driver side and a straight plug head on the pass side. That would work the best for the spark plug wires. Andy, a little off the topic, but where did you get those exhaust gaskets? i know that ehrenberg sells those gaskets Is there another source ?
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