Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
#2434210
01/14/18 01:02 AM
01/14/18 01:02 AM
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V194
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440 or stroked Big block OR 5.7-6.4 modern hemi
Which is cheapest to hit the Hp goal of 650-700HP?
Last edited by V194; 01/14/18 01:23 AM.
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Re: Dollor for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: bobby66]
#2434216
01/14/18 01:17 AM
01/14/18 01:17 AM
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V194
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I think there are some build ups in the tech archive that will get you where you want to go. Yes I have read them just wanting to know dollar for dollar which is the lowest cost option to achieve the goal. Big block or new hemi?
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Re: Dollor for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434250
01/14/18 02:48 AM
01/14/18 02:48 AM
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OhioMopar
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Most likely a B/RB. 650 horespower doesn't really have a low cost option. Lol. Or not one that will live very long!
1969 Dart GTS 340 1969 Super Bee X9 N-96 1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96 2015 Dodge Dart GT 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn. Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434253
01/14/18 03:06 AM
01/14/18 03:06 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,332 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Your goals are achievable with the correct good parts, a good sonic tested 400 block, 4.250 stroke crankshaft kit with the longest forged H beam steel rods you can use, 10.0 to 10.7 to 1 compression with a set of the new Trick Flow 270 CC heads and a matching intake manifold with a 1000 + CFM carb and a good high lift medium duration (245 to 265 @.050 with a LCA from 105 to 110)camshaft and rocker arm kit ![twocents twocents](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/twocents.gif) My first 400 stroker (511 C.I. 4.375 bore with 4.25 stroke))had 9.25 to 1 compression with a set of mildy ported 906 heads with bigger valves and a low deck six pack set up. That combination made 612 HP at 5500 RPM and 644 Ft. Lbs. torque at 4500 RPM, I put that motor in a 3450+ Lbs. 1971 Duster that ran 10.69 at 124.+ MPH through the complete to the rear bumper 3.0 inch exhaust system on with the air cleaner on ![boogie boogie](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/boogie.gif) A later change to a set CNC ported Eddy RPM heads picked it up 10.49 at 127+ MPH on Oregon 91 octane pump swill That was back in the early to mid 2000 so don't ask me about the prices now ![shruggy shruggy](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/shruggy.gif) I beat the snout out of that motor, I did make a lot of changes to it in the ten years I owned and raced it but it was the same cam and lifters and bore size with the original pistons when I traded it off for my current race car The cheapest way to make your HP goals may be a used lat emodel Hemi and a lot of NOS, no way to tell how long a stock motor will take 200 to 400 HP of NOS ![work work](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/work.gif) A decent built pump gas BB stroker motor will make that amount of power for a long time, trust me on that ![grin grin](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/grin.gif)
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434291
01/14/18 06:26 AM
01/14/18 06:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,682 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Personally I'm thinking the 3rd Gen hemi is the way to go. The heads supossedely flow over 300 cfm in near stock trim so they should easily support over 600 hp NA. A turbo or supercharger and you're there.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434388
01/14/18 01:35 PM
01/14/18 01:35 PM
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RoadRunner
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I'll throw in my two cents. I'd go with a 500CI stroker kit in a 440. Some aftermarket aluminum heads, good intake and carb. I am not an expert at recommending cams, so I will delegate that to someone else. I would think nothing too radical would be needed in the cam area to get to 650 hp. But, if you are going to stroke any block (RB or Gen II hemi), might as well get the most cubes as possible.
68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: BDW]
#2434422
01/14/18 02:40 PM
01/14/18 02:40 PM
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MarkZ
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That 10k figure includes ancillary items as well for building old iron where the hemi doesn't. I just built a 512 and it cost me just a bit over that out the door. That 15k Hemi still needs a harness, fuel system, computer, pan and exhaust. All that stuff being for late model is tons more expensive than it's old school equivalents as well. Cost parity is coming, but I don't thinks it's there yet.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434451
01/14/18 03:20 PM
01/14/18 03:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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First question, what's your budget for the "complete" motor? Carb to pan, headers, distributor, plugs, wires, oil,..... Everything.
Then, is your car currently equipped with a fuel and cooling system capable of supporting a 650hp motor?
If not, are those upgrades budgeted separately...... Or do they need to be included in the "engine" budget?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2434499
01/14/18 05:14 PM
01/14/18 05:14 PM
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V194
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First question, what's your budget for the "complete" motor? Carb to pan, headers, distributor, plugs, wires, oil,..... Everything.
Then, is your car currently equipped with a fuel and cooling system capable of supporting a 650hp motor?
If not, are those upgrades budgeted separately...... Or do they need to be included in the "engine" budget? The question boils down to this. Irrespective of any other factor is it 'cheaper" to build a BB or BB stroker OR new hemi to support a 650-700hp target STREETABLE aka hot rod, restomod or whatever you like (in other words not a full time race car) This is more of a what if or a bench racing question not a How do I build... question.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434545
01/14/18 06:22 PM
01/14/18 06:22 PM
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PurpleBeeper
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I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here, but a good solid 440 (forged pistons, maybe a girdle and some good heads) with nitrous oxide will get you there. You will be right on the limit of a stock block, but the car can easily be streetable since you won't need a huge cam.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434581
01/14/18 07:26 PM
01/14/18 07:26 PM
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fast68plymouth
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"Cheapest" is probably a used 5.7/6.4 with a turbo kit.
The LS guys make more than that with used 5.3's with turbos on them.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: JAMESDART]
#2434640
01/14/18 10:15 PM
01/14/18 10:15 PM
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I did a mild, street driver 505" 440 for right at $7,500. Molnar crank and rods, Mahle pistons and CNC Stealth heads. It's just under 600 HP but more than enough for the street and a blast at the track!
You save a lot of money if you can build it yourself.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2434677
01/14/18 10:55 PM
01/14/18 10:55 PM
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larrymopar360
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I think MarkM hits the nail on the head first. Older car will cost so much more to wire it up with the proper harnesses, etc. to support the newer Hemi.
Next I agree with Cab Burge. Stroked 400. The more I read about stroking a 400 the more I like!
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2434831
01/15/18 03:49 AM
01/15/18 03:49 AM
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GTX MATT
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"Cheapest" is probably a used 5.7/6.4 with a turbo kit.
The LS guys make more than that with used 5.3's with turbos on them. I would think a a Gen 3 with a turbo kit also, but you could also easily run the bill up to equal or far more than your basic B/RB would be to make the same power. It all depends on your approach. But I think it can be done cheaper. The main disadvantage that you have with a B/RB is its already going to need a rebuild unless you find a good engine for a song. Everyone thinks their junk 440 that burns oil and has 100 psi cranking compression is worth what those 5.7s on CL cost...
Last edited by GTX MATT; 01/15/18 03:50 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2435024
01/15/18 03:22 PM
01/15/18 03:22 PM
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thedriver
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Gen 3 for sure. Just because you can pick a complete one out of a wrecker and more less supercharge it etc. Look at the ls swaps. Nobody is picking 350’s anymore to hotrod.
1973 challenger Dana. 4 speed. Low deck.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2435093
01/15/18 05:37 PM
01/15/18 05:37 PM
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451Mopar
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I don't have the answer. I just started looking into Gen III stuff.
I think if you are working on an older Mopar, Then a stroked big block may be easiest because it will fit the stock K-member. I think either option may be close in a hp per dollar for the engine, with many differences in fitment, accessorys and drive, and fuel system.
If you want modern EFI, coil near plug, serpentine belt drive, with high output alternator, A/C, and power steering, I think starting with the GenIII will save money, but fitting the engine to a old car and the computer/electronics may add to the costs?
A big block with carb, and minimal accessories likely will be less expensive, but converting the old big block to modern accessories and port EFI can be expensive.
In my case, I overspent converting the 505" stroked 440 in the convertible to port EFI and Billet Specialities Tru-Track. The Tru-Track serpentine belt system was over $3,000 plus all the lines, remote reservoir(s), and other stuff likely an additional $500? The Edelbrock XT EFI was about $4,000 and I ended changing out the ECU, fuel pump and such to about all I really used with the intake, TB, and sensors. The total cost got out of control likely an additional $3,000 on top of that for the FAST XFI 2.0, dual sync dist, wiring, EFI fuel tank and such.
On the other hand, I picked up a 80,000 mile 2008 6.1L Hemi with NAG trans off E-Bay for $4,000 with all the accessories, manifolds, stock wiring harness and computer. I think I spent $200 on a new electronic accelerator pedal and transmission shifter. I haven't decided on what to do with the electronics yet as more options are starting to come out. Looking at the Holley Dominator EFI? The conversion K-Members are a bit pricy. The RMS alterKtion K-member / handling suspension kits are around $5,300+ brakes at $700 to $2,000.
Last edited by 451Mopar; 01/15/18 05:45 PM.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: GY3]
#2435338
01/16/18 12:29 AM
01/16/18 12:29 AM
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Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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I did a mild, street driver 505" 440 for right at $7,500. Molnar crank and rods, Mahle pistons and CNC Stealth heads. It's just under 600 HP but more than enough for the street and a blast at the track!
You save a lot of money if you can build it yourself. That makes a huge difference if you can do your own work. I have to laugh at some of my friends who are mechanics for a living. They seem to be happy being the parts replacing mechanic where they slam parts on cars and make all the money they can but as soon as a real problem job comes in their shop they say.....take it to the dealer. And they pay a machine shop to built their complete eng ??? Why would you have a trade as a mech and pay someone else to build your engine ?? Myself I became a mechanic/tech so I could learn to do everything on a car and I sure as heck did not become a tech for a living to not build my own eng. I can see if your not a tech/mechanic but I do all my own work that I can which is most other then some machine work or head porting which I have done but I am no pro head porter and I now have back problems that mess with bending over a bench. But if your are able to do most or all of your own work you will save a ton of money. I know for my stroker kit , cam , heads and little things I spent at least 7k and that's just parts. If I had payed to have the eng built that's most likely somewhere from $1500 on north. The other question is are you talking naturally aspirated eng or do you plan on a power adder as that makes a big difference. If N/A I think the bigblock B/RB stroker is one of the best bets. But if you are including power adders heck a stock 5.7 to 6.2 Hemi with a supercharger on it should be right there. Or look at what DVW's son (I forgot his handle) has done with a mild 360 and twin turbo's on his 62 Mopar. I don't know how much he has in it but his car runs mid 9's and makes a lot of power. Myself I like the N/A bigblock stroker eng but I grew up in a world where you just did not see power adders that much on muscle cars. But in todays world you can make big power fast with power adders and the new Hemi eng seems to be strong enough to stay together with superchargers slapped on them that are basically stock. Its close without added up all the figures but I would consider just what car and eng combo you like and what you plan to use the car as. Me I love the 60's and 70's muscle cars with naturally aspirated engines and that's the way I would and did go but you should consider what type of car/eng combo you like also. Good luck with it. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 01/16/18 12:30 AM.
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: V194]
#2435383
01/16/18 01:30 AM
01/16/18 01:30 AM
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Joined: May 2015
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Iowan
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I have a 645 hp 500" 440 that will be street driven, it has iron heads so it has a stout cam and I know it will probably get less than 3 mpg on e-85. This combination has been together for twenty five years but if I was to start from scratch it would be a gen 3 turbo. It would be nice to have more drivability....10 , 15 miles per gallon in addition to more power.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: Iowan]
#2435404
01/16/18 01:55 AM
01/16/18 01:55 AM
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RTSrunner
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I have a 645 hp 500" 440 that will be street driven, it has iron heads so it has a stout cam and I know it will probably get less than 3 mpg on e-85. This combination has been together for twenty five years but if I was to start from scratch it would be a gen 3 turbo. It would be nice to have more drivability....10 , 15 miles per gallon in addition to more power. What iron heads are you running at that power level?
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: RTSrunner]
#2435454
01/16/18 04:09 AM
01/16/18 04:09 AM
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Joined: May 2015
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Iowan
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I have a 645 hp 500" 440 that will be street driven, it has iron heads so it has a stout cam and I know it will probably get less than 3 mpg on e-85. This combination has been together for twenty five years but if I was to start from scratch it would be a gen 3 turbo. It would be nice to have more drivability....10 , 15 miles per gallon in addition to more power. What iron heads are you running at that power level? An old pair of 915s, 2.18/1.81. 67cc
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: Dollar for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: Iowan]
#2435460
01/16/18 04:27 AM
01/16/18 04:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,882 Pittsburgh,PA
RTSrunner
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I have a 645 hp 500" 440 that will be street driven, it has iron heads so it has a stout cam and I know it will probably get less than 3 mpg on e-85. This combination has been together for twenty five years but if I was to start from scratch it would be a gen 3 turbo. It would be nice to have more drivability....10 , 15 miles per gallon in addition to more power. What iron heads are you running at that power level? An old pair of 915s, 2.18/1.81. 67cc Nice!
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Re: Dollor for dollar best investment for 650+ HP
[Re: OhioMopar]
#2435965
01/16/18 10:41 PM
01/16/18 10:41 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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Most likely a B/RB. 650 horespower doesn't really have a low cost option. Lol. Or not one that will live very long! You can build an Indy head stroker for under 10K that will last forever if you do your own assembly carefully. It can be done with a flat tappet cam but a roller would make the 650 number easier and possibly live longer. The roller would probably bump the price over 10K for the package to support the roller. You don't really need external oiling with the correct rod and crank choice so that would save a bunch of dough. Gus ![beer beer](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/beer.gif)
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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