Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402604
11/12/17 04:48 PM
11/12/17 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
The two biggest killers of flat tappet cams, outside of lifters not rotating is slow idle speed and low oil volume at idle. The cam is lubed from oil grown from the rods.

The same thing kills adjusters and galls rocker shafts.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402636
11/12/17 06:20 PM
11/12/17 06:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
In the OP's case, he's using EDM direct oiling lifters.

Oil pressure had nothing to do with the result here.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Flat cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #2402641
11/12/17 06:31 PM
11/12/17 06:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
In the OP's case, he's using EDM direct oiling lifters.

Oil pressure had nothing to do with the result here.



I read that. I've never used them. It would seem that if the volume of oil was down, it would also be down with the lifter oiling.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402646
11/12/17 06:41 PM
11/12/17 06:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
Compared to splash oiling, the edm lifters provide a ton of oil to the cam.

Even at 10psi there would be plenty of oil....... And it's a constant, uninterrupted supply.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402654
11/12/17 06:58 PM
11/12/17 06:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline OP
master
CSK  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
it had 20 psi at Idle, 40 @ 3000,before all this it had 55 @ 3000


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Flat cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #2402655
11/12/17 06:59 PM
11/12/17 06:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
All the stock Mopar V8 blocks I've built had a ton of lifter to block clearances, no need for EDM lifters in my opinion work shruggy

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/12/17 06:59 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402666
11/12/17 07:19 PM
11/12/17 07:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By csk
it had 20 psi at Idle, 40 @ 3000,before all this it had 55 @ 3000


I know of enough instances of using the schubek/tool steel type lifters on cast cams where the outcome was the same as yours that I'm comfortable in my assumptions that it had nothing to do with oil pressure.

There was a point in time where I felt this approach to solving the problems with flat tappet cams wearing out in street driven vehicles had some merit, but I've seen enough of them, and know of enough others, where I no longer feel that's the case.

As Oldiron stated, his motor showed no symptoms at all from this happening to his cam.
The motor was getting freshened, and it was discovered during tear down.
Since there is only "wear" at the nose of the lobe, and no wear on the lifters, it doesn't even change the lash.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Flat cam [Re: fast68plymouth] #2402677
11/12/17 07:32 PM
11/12/17 07:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline OP
master
CSK  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Originally Posted By csk
it had 20 psi at Idle, 40 @ 3000,before all this it had 55 @ 3000


I know of enough instances of using the schubek/tool steel type lifters on cast cams where the outcome was the same as yours that I'm comfortable in my assumptions that it had nothing to do with oil pressure.

There was a point in time where I felt this approach to solving the problems with flat tappet cams wearing out in street driven vehicles had some merit, but I've seen enough of them, and know of enough others, where I no longer feel that's the case.

As Oldiron stated, his motor showed no symptoms at all from this happening to his cam.
The motor was getting freshened, and it was discovered during tear down.
Since there is only "wear" at the nose of the lobe, and no wear on the lifters, it doesn't even change the lash.


I checked lash every 1000 miles & there was no change, I have not pulled the engine out yet, I have found some things, the oil pump shaft bushing was very worn & sloppy , also found that the oil pump shaft was to long, it bottomed out in the oil pump keeping the drive gear about .050 from sitting down on the shaft bushing.The oil pump looks very worn & scuffed ,cam bearings look squished out also

Last edited by csk; 11/12/17 07:35 PM.

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402688
11/12/17 08:10 PM
11/12/17 08:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,172
PA.
pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Online Work
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,172
PA.
As I said above you had some cam thrusting going on for some reason but what do I know. A diagonal line on a cam edge to middle can’t be a good thing. My days of running mushroom tappet cams taught me to really pay attention to that area. I hate looking at posts on my phone except for pictures that I want to examine closely. It really lets me zoom in.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402788
11/12/17 11:25 PM
11/12/17 11:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 170
Wisconsin
M
Medlock51 Offline
member
Medlock51  Offline
member
M

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 170
Wisconsin

Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402846
11/13/17 12:53 AM
11/13/17 12:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
master
Crizila  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Most flat tappet cam failures fall in to four categories. 1. dirt. 2. improper break-in procedure. 3. wrong and/or inadequate lube. 4. parts mismatch. In your case I believe it is #4 and possibly #3. It is not too often a manufacturer problem when you really start to look in to what caused the failure. In the long term, going to a roller won't fix any of those problems. BTW, #1 leads the pack by a 1/4 mile!


Fastest 300
Re: Flat cam [Re: Medlock51] #2402877
11/13/17 02:08 AM
11/13/17 02:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.


To my knowledge, there are no P55 cores available for the BB mopar, and the OP's cam wasn't nitrided.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2402902
11/13/17 04:50 AM
11/13/17 04:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 636
Graz, Austria
DGS Offline
mopar
DGS  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 636
Graz, Austria
Which lifter would you use with a solid flat tappet cam made out of 8620 alloy (= roller cam material)? Can a tool steel lifter be used?

Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2403034
11/13/17 02:53 PM
11/13/17 02:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline OP
master
CSK  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
Ben from Howards cams asked me to send him my cam & lifters to see if they can come up with an answer, Howards cams makes a Quality product & have always been very helpful to me, I will let Y'all know the outcome.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2403063
11/13/17 03:48 PM
11/13/17 03:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
master
CompWedgeEngines  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
I'm in Dwaynes camp on this one. I dont think anything Howards provided was at fault here. I think it was an unknowingly ( not criticizing you, just what it is) mismatch of parts and specs.The tool steel wasnt probably a good choice here, even though it " seemed" like better would be, well, better. You had several issues at play here, but I dont believe it was 1) oil, 2) the cams fault. I think the " fracturing" idea is dead nuts on.The wear doesnt look like the normal " wiped out cam" deal, which is usually way sooner as far as mileage goes.Regardless, its all mute now, as your not heading in that direction with the new stuff.best of luck on the new deal..onward and upward.


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Flat cam [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #2403072
11/13/17 04:05 PM
11/13/17 04:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline OP
master
CSK  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,856
Pattison Texas
Originally Posted By CompWedgeEngines
I'm in Dwaynes camp on this one. I dont think anything Howards provided was at fault here. I think it was an unknowingly ( not criticizing you, just what it is) mismatch of parts and specs.The tool steel wasnt probably a good choice here, even though it " seemed" like better would be, well, better. You had several issues at play here, but I dont believe it was 1) oil, 2) the cams fault. I think the " fracturing" idea is dead nuts on.The wear doesnt look like the normal " wiped out cam" deal, which is usually way sooner as far as mileage goes.Regardless, its all mute now, as your not heading in that direction with the new stuff.best of luck on the new deal..onward and upward.


I agree with you, I REALLY appreciate all the input from everyone, this is a costly mishap [ mistake]
Thank you Dwayne !!!!!


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2403258
11/13/17 10:13 PM
11/13/17 10:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx Offline
master
sogtx  Offline
master

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
Ok
So im a victim too
Always used brad penn and checked lash
So whats the hot ticket
Hydraulic roller or solid and whose ?

Re: Flat cam [Re: sogtx] #2403294
11/13/17 11:46 PM
11/13/17 11:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mopar Country, Mi
ccdave Offline
The Ultimate
ccdave  Offline
The Ultimate

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mopar Country, Mi
I like using hydraulic rollers for street/strip engines. I’ve never had a problem with the Hughes hyd rollers and the Hughes hyd lifters. It’s around 800 - 1000 bucks more to go roller but much better than pulling your engine apart to fix a flattened lobe on a flat tappet cam.

Re: Flat cam [Re: ccdave] #2403497
11/14/17 01:51 PM
11/14/17 01:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
master
Crizila  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Originally Posted By ccdave
I like using hydraulic rollers for street/strip engines. I’ve never had a problem with the Hughes hyd rollers and the Hughes hyd lifters. It’s around 800 - 1000 bucks more to go roller but much better than pulling your engine apart to fix a flattened lobe on a flat tappet cam.
No 2 ways that a roller will make more power (usually). Unfortunately, flat tappet cams get a bad rap when there is a flat tappet failure when it is often not the cam / lifters fault. If you are in to a mild to moderate street/strip build (OP), flat tappet stuff works great for a lot less $. Built many in the .600+ lift range with no problems. Maybe I'm just lucky. work


Fastest 300
Re: Flat cam [Re: CSK] #2403506
11/14/17 02:21 PM
11/14/17 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
I feel both flat tappet and roller cams have their pluses and minuses.
You just have to decide which fits your program/budget best.

I still sell plenty of flat tappet cams.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1