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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365318
09/04/17 05:40 PM
09/04/17 05:40 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:
Wow! I was gone for one day and I have all these responses! Thanks for the information.
We love ya brother! We got your back. I'm looking forward to finding out exactly WHAT/WHERE it dead shorted.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365397
09/04/17 08:20 PM
09/04/17 08:20 PM
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Mattax Offline
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Robert, I think made a pretty good guess. Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there.

8liter - Could have been fuel and yes poor running could have been dirty or looseness on a connector leading to the coil. But the poor connection is just where the heat builds, not why its drew so much current.

Lets see a photo of the battery and relay wiring when you have a chance.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365479
09/04/17 10:33 PM
09/04/17 10:33 PM
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Ok, ran out of daylight but here are some photos that may be able to help us out. First picture is the battery compartment in the trunk.

Aluminum open box with stick welder copper wire (bought new) for the lead. Runs through the passenger compartment into the engine bay where the tray used to sit. Battery was placed in trunk when I first got the car in 1998.

IMG_0640.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365480
09/04/17 10:34 PM
09/04/17 10:34 PM
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Battery connections are clean (probably the only clean thing on this car right now)

IMG_0641.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365481
09/04/17 10:36 PM
09/04/17 10:36 PM
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Wire comes to engine compartment. The red wire is spliced into this large copper wire and wrapped/insulated where it then goes to the starter relay.

IMG_0643.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365482
09/04/17 10:37 PM
09/04/17 10:37 PM
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Insulated welder lug inside the wheel well.

IMG_0645.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365484
09/04/17 10:40 PM
09/04/17 10:40 PM
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Another view of the welding lug from up top.

IMG_0647.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365486
09/04/17 10:43 PM
09/04/17 10:43 PM
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So in the meantime, I need to gather some things for repair until I figure out exactly what I need to do. This is my shopping list so far, correct me if I need something else or am buying the wrong things.

Crimping tool: https://www.amazon.com/Delphi-Packard-Fi...AQXYK9REDVGY0F4

Male terminals: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NW_725145

Female terminals: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NW_725147

Bulkhead connector: http://www.megapartsusa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=104-BH7074


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365500
09/04/17 10:57 PM
09/04/17 10:57 PM
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https://www.amazon.com/50-Female-Terminals-2084421-2962447/dp/B0040CU11M

https://www.amazon.com/Packard-Male-Gaug...9BYT9ED6A1SXCMY

cheaper than napa if you are ordering on line.

or del city or
probably a few other places.

I only use napa when I need 1 or 2 and have to have it today.

not sure I would order a new bulkhead connector.
you can patch up or by pass the one you have.

taking it apart and redoing all the connectors is good enough.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365503
09/04/17 11:04 PM
09/04/17 11:04 PM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Mattax


If I understand correctly, first the wire from the battery to the starter relay failed.
Then after this was replaced, you were trying to figure out why it would not start. I think this can be figured out. It will help to draw out the wiring to include the voltage regulator and the ignition. I still think its likely alternator or alternator wiring related.

PS. Those Mymopar wiring diagrams didn't seem to quite match what I'm seeing in your photos. Turns out those are not factory diagrams. I have no idea where they got them from - something aftermarket like Chiltons or Mitchels I guess. If its the same as the late 60s, the real diagrams are probably in '71 Plymouth service manual (which is also on that website).


To answer this question, the red wire from the battery lug to the starter relay did not fail.

The wire from the starter relay to the bulkhead connector did fail. The fuseable link wire insulation melted off but did not sacrifice itself in this case.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365505
09/04/17 11:08 PM
09/04/17 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
https://www.amazon.com/50-Female-Terminals-2084421-2962447/dp/B0040CU11M

https://www.amazon.com/Packard-Male-Gaug...9BYT9ED6A1SXCMY

cheaper than napa if you are ordering on line.

or del city or
probably a few other places.

I only use napa when I need 1 or 2 and have to have it today.

not sure I would order a new bulkhead connector.
you can patch up or by pass the one you have.

taking it apart and redoing all the connectors is good enough.


Ok cool, I will try to get by without having to get the bulkhead connector first.

Also, a question in response to a recent suggestion from mattax,

"Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there."

how would I go about doing this? Would all of the wires have to be hooked up first, or just take off the alternator and have it bench tested?

Sorry for so many questions, this is a weak area for me and I am learning a lot, thanks!

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/04/17 11:09 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365519
09/04/17 11:37 PM
09/04/17 11:37 PM
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the 147/145 terminals are the right ones (packard 56 1/4" brass male/female). I would get the bulkhead as it would be to your advantage to have everything fresh to start with but with that being said it might be a good plan for you to purchase a complete harness which may or may not already include the bulkhead halves (wait for advice on that & the harness replacement itself). It just might be much easier for you to drop in a new harness. I rewired a 65 dart from scratch piece by piece wire by wire! & I would not want to do it again & it was a bare bones machine compared to later stuff! under hood was easy/under dash was extremely time consuming. An alt main stud to short to ground is rare but it kinda seems like/appears that there was a dead short or near dead short (very high draw) in the main large wire circuit from batt to inside/to ammeter/to welded splice/to bulkhead again/out to alt but maybe it did not go that far & the farthest reach of the burned wires away from the power source (the battery) is where it grounded but it seemed to be progressing pretty far along that main wire circuit (that'd be something for you to check). to check the alt main stud, take off the round terminal from it & ohm the stud to the alt case & should be no continuity. EDIT I set the old harness on the kitchen floor & started the new one right next to it. I duplicated one circuit then cut it off of the old one till the new one took shape & the old one dissappeared & I crimped/soldered every terminal & used larger wires on some circuits.

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/05/17 12:09 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365540
09/05/17 12:07 AM
09/05/17 12:07 AM
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The NAPA terminals you linked to shows them to be for 14-16 gage. You'll need the next size up, 12-10 gage.
Also, my personal preference has been for one that are coated with tin.

I bought mine from Waytek Wire. More than I thought I'd ever need. Then this past winter-spring I ended up going through the entire harness on my '85 Grand Wagoneer. I was glad to have most of what I needed.

I'm not 100% sure on the crimper. It looks right but check to be sure its for "open barrel terminals."

Quote:

Ok cool, I will try to get by without having to get the bulkhead connector first.
If you do this, make sure the terminals click in place. (I chased a charging problem for a couple years on that wagoneer until I found the culprit was the alternator terminal not retaining in the connector.)

Quote:

"Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there."

how would I go about doing this? Would all of the wires have to be hooked up first, or just take off the alternator and have it bench tested?

Sorry for so many questions, this is a weak area for me and I am learning a lot, thanks!

Leave the alternator on for now. Just check what's there.
If there's no connection to ground, as it should be, then see if any of the remaining wires short to ground. If nothing, then you'll have to come back to checking for shorts to ground after repairs.

Do you have multi-meter? Measure the resistance between the alternator's output (Bat) terminal and ground. The alternator casting or any engine bolt will do for ground.
If you have test light, see if there is continutity.
In both cases, touch one lead to the Bat terminal and the other to ground.
If the circuit is closed (light goes on, or there is a low resistance reading) then there is a ground short.
If so, disconnect the Heavy Wire from the Bat terminal.
Test the alternator alone with one lead on the Bat terminal and the other to ground.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 12:11 AM. Reason: improved response :)
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365559
09/05/17 12:36 AM
09/05/17 12:36 AM
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Let me see if I understand the sequence.

First you install the battery and before even turning the key, the wire attached to the fusible link fails. (Not the one with the ? mark.)

You replace the failed wire with the red wire the arrows are pointing to.
When the key was turned to start, the starter turns over but it won't start. The lights do work. Then maybe you put it in run and jump the starter while checking for spark from coil wire to ground?

During this testing, you notice smoke and find the battery and alternator feeds have burned.

IMG_0643-question.jpg
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365577
09/05/17 12:57 AM
09/05/17 12:57 AM
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An alternative to the bulkhead repair is not using it for the alternator and battery feeds. Run those wires straight through the firewall using a grommet.
Shown in the diagram below originally from NachoRT.

8 gage wire is probably overkill for your situation. With 10 or 12 it will be easier to make good connections.

Rewire69RT-spliced.jpg
Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 01:37 AM. Reason: add comment on the 8 gage
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365588
09/05/17 01:22 AM
09/05/17 01:22 AM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Let me see if I understand the sequence.

First you install the battery and before even turning the key, the wire attached to the fusible link fails. (Not the one with the ? mark.)

You replace the failed wire with the red wire the arrows are pointing to.
When the key was turned to start, the starter turns over but it won't start. The lights do work. Then maybe you put it in run and jump the starter while checking for spark from coil wire to ground?

During this testing, you notice smoke and find the battery and alternator feeds have burned.


Since the battery is in the trunk, it took a moment for me to realize there was a smoke show coming from the front of the car.

I thought it was the single wire from the starter relay as indicated. Once I replaced that wire from the starter relay, there was no more smoke but no spark.

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 01:25 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365592
09/05/17 01:34 AM
09/05/17 01:34 AM
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OK. It all makes sense now. The connection to the battery was fixed, and that was good enough to trip the starter relay and turn on lights.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365596
09/05/17 01:42 AM
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Quote:
The NAPA terminals you linked to shows them to be for 14-16 gage. You'll need the next size up, 12-10 gage.
Correct, some of the circuits need to be the bigger size.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365658
09/05/17 09:34 AM
09/05/17 09:34 AM
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My suggestion about replace the bulkhead is because I can see more damage than just the burnt cavity itself, Several areas broken due the age, not related with this short.

Since you got burnt the cavities and these terminals are weak no matter what AND the original Mopar alts are poor output level at iddle I would advice consider upgrade the alt for a better output unit ( able to source around 45-50 amps iddling ). This is a tipical failure from stock disposition, poor alts what burnt these packard terminals and overheats everything around. Run the wires straight through the firewall will save the weakness of the packard terminals for the charging loads when reving up a pooor iddle output alt

If you make that you can:

-Forgett the packard terminals since we are telling to buy to replace the ones burnt... no need to buy them. Remove the old wiring from the old bulkhead clean terminals and relocate them on the new one,

-despite the new engine harness plug. If just got damaged the black wire location just forget about that. Clean the rest of terminals thought. Remove the existant black wire at engine harness.

-No need to splice two new wires into the man splice inside the cab. Just run the section between the main splice and ammeter with the same 12 gauge wire or maybe 10 straight to the solice if you want. The new wire to the alt can be attached straight to the ammeter stud. You'll be getting two terminals on black side of ammeter, the one from the main splice and the one from alt. This make just one splice job and also a straight recharging path ( if batt got discharged ) between alt and batt without need to go through the splice, Splice will suck just what needs from amm stud.

This is just if you decide to run wires straight through the firewall instead using the stock disposition. On my thread about the alt upgrade ( the first one I posted here ) I suggest the parallel path to this just because if the stock disposition is still good no need to remove them and you could use smaller gauge in parallel path ( 12 or 10 ) , BUT if the original wiring disposition is already burnt these can be removed and just use the paths out of the bulkhead using thicker wires... ( 10 or 8 )


And I still don't gett how is the fuse link wired on starter relay and I can see it in good conditions not burnt! It should burnt way before this damage was done. A fuse link takes its time to burnt, and allways gives time to some damage thought, but not like this!


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2365662
09/05/17 10:14 AM
09/05/17 10:14 AM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
My suggestion about replace the bulkhead is because I can see more damage than just the burnt cavity itself, Several areas broken due the age, not related with this short.

Since you got burnt the cavities and these terminals are weak no matter what AND the original Mopar alts are poor output level at iddle I would advice consider upgrade the alt for a better output unit ( able to source around 45-50 amps iddling ). This is a tipical failure from stock disposition, poor alts what burnt these packard terminals and overheats everything around. Run the wires straight through the firewall will save the weakness of the packard terminals for the charging loads when reving up a pooor iddle output alt

If you make that you can:

-Forgett the packard terminals since we are telling to buy to replace the ones burnt... no need to buy them. Remove the old wiring from the old bulkhead clean terminals and relocate them on the new one,

-despite the new engine harness plug. If just got damaged the black wire location just forget about that. Clean the rest of terminals thought. Remove the existant black wire at engine harness.

-No need to splice two new wires into the man splice inside the cab. Just run the section between the main splice and ammeter with the same 12 gauge wire or maybe 10 straight to the solice if you want. The new wire to the alt can be attached straight to the ammeter stud. You'll be getting two terminals on black side of ammeter, the one from the main splice and the one from alt. This make just one splice job and also a straight recharging path ( if batt got discharged ) between alt and batt without need to go through the splice, Splice will suck just what needs from amm stud.

This is just if you decide to run wires straight through the firewall instead using the stock disposition. On my thread about the alt upgrade ( the first one I posted here ) I suggest the parallel path to this just because if the stock disposition is still good no need to remove them and you could use smaller gauge in parallel path ( 12 or 10 ) , BUT if the original wiring disposition is already burnt these can be removed and just use the paths out of the bulkhead using thicker wires... ( 10 or 8 )


And I still don't gett how is the fuse link wired on starter relay and I can see it in good conditions not burnt! It should burnt way before this damage was done. A fuse link takes its time to burnt, and allways gives time to some damage thought, but not like this!


My picture is an updated one, that is a new fuseable link. The picture is how it the old one looked. The insulation was cooked off.

I was thinking, I may replace the bulkhead because it is over 40 years old and pretty brittle and abused. Regarding a new bulkhead, do I just pull out the old terminals and push them into the new one? I guess I can destroy the old one to get them if they are melted in there.

IMG_0631.JPG
Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 10:15 AM.

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