440 vs 360 for tow rig
#2309308
05/22/17 08:27 PM
05/22/17 08:27 PM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6 Massachusetts
xjsc16x
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Massachusetts
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I have a '76 Power Wagon I'm trying to bring back to shape in order to turn it into a winter truck / tow my 18' boat or a car on a trailer when I need to. It's a 4x4 truck, kingpin D60 front and D60 rear on stock truck tires now but going to be on 34x12.5s soon.
My goal is mostly torque and something that's not going to eat a hole in my wallet with gas, although with no OD and 4.11 gears I'm already kind of shooting myself in the foot here.
Currently it has a big 440 sitting in it with a large (no idea the specs) cam and a holley 700 DP on top. Other than that I believe it's mostly stock. If it matters I can try to pull away the grime and find what casting the heads are at some point. Sucks gas like crazy but will roast the tires whenever I want...lol.
To the point: I like the idea of keeping the 440, but I think in the long run would it be better if I just put a small block in it and call it a day? Plus, I could keep the 440 for something more worthy of the power (charger?.. drop it into my dakota r/t?... who knows hahah).
I can get my hands on a 360 magnum for basically nothing, throw an eddy carb intake and an LA dizzy on it and a small cam and call it a day.
Which would work better?
Last edited by xjsc16x; 05/22/17 08:28 PM.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2309477
05/23/17 12:29 AM
05/23/17 12:29 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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Are you planing on building a transmission at this time also?
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2309565
05/23/17 03:44 AM
05/23/17 03:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,998 Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
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Salem
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"Which would work better?"
Neither.
Park the '76-440.
Take all that hard-earned money you are wanting to blow on tires/lift/engine and:
Buy yourself a 2wd 318/360 2nd Gen Ram (they go for $1000 to $3500 depending on miles) and tow your boat and car hauler without a worry. Drive it all winter and pat me on the back everytime that thing fires up and gets you where you want to be instead of fighting with 41-year old technology.
And, get 15 to 17mpg empty if you drive it right and do some proven upgrades.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2309576
05/23/17 04:50 AM
05/23/17 04:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,944 woodcrest, CA
magnum440d100
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,944
woodcrest, CA
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I'm in the same boat, so to speak. I have a 74 w200 with a 440 that just developed a knock. I'm building a 360 with 9.2:1 Pistons, .486 cam, scat rods, etc, to toss in there while I pull the 440 apart to fix it. It's been rebuilt once, and I'm hoping that a crank kit will fix it.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2309606
05/23/17 08:40 AM
05/23/17 08:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
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Buy the 2nd Gen truck , good idea....if you get a good one.
360's tow well, but gas mileage sucks....440 will do about 3-5 miles better per gallon. intake Edelbrock Performer RPM Cam HUG SEH1016BL-12 , Carb.. Thermoquaud make sure it works . Before I laid my 78 D300 rclb 440 4 speed dually to rest in 2012, around town it would do about 12mpg on a good day, 14 on a great day. on the highway about 12 no matter what day , throw 7500lbs trailer it would do 10-12 depending on the hills and speed.
Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth. Some of us are so open minded they only see their View
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#2309849
05/23/17 03:51 PM
05/23/17 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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It's not a 360!!! It's a 5.9 mag. There is enough different between the Mag motors and LA motors that the Mags deserve their own monicker.
Here's the biggest question of all...How many trips towing per year and how many miles per round trip?
If it's something like three trips per year for distance of 200 miles or so, the 5.9 Mag will get the job done. You'll just have to drive in the slow lane, although with a jacked up Ramcharger I can't see you doing anything other than that.
A short wheelbase rig like a Ramcharger is too easy for the trailer to steer. When the trailer starts steering, your control goes right out the window. Thank God for electric trailer brakes.
This summer I took a trip in a low mileage Ram 2500. I mostly drove between 70 and 80, with no excursions off the highway. For the whole trip I averaged 13.8 mpg. That's with the bed empty and the tires inflated properly.
There is a whole lot of parts changing, swapping smallblock for bigblock.
I have made several tows over 1000miles using a 318-powered D100. But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, and every time I come back from one of those trips, I say never again, It isn't just the semis passing on the uphill, it's also white knuckle time the whole distance.
R.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: dezduster]
#2309902
05/23/17 05:16 PM
05/23/17 05:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
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440 hone re ring mild 220--226 duration cam, Qjet carb, 14degrees initial timing 36 total all in by 2800 12 degree vacuum advance for a total of 48 to 50 at cruise and 60 mph will get you 15ish mpg. The holly double pumper on a truck will just use fuel to use fuel. Yes you could tune it to do really well BUT can you tune yourself to be fuel efficient using it?. 2nd this approach. I had a similar build; 440, +.030 with tight quench, smallish 224 cam, blueprinted chambers with mild porting, port matched intake, dry film lube and thermal barrier coatings everywhere, headers, with carb (AFB) and ignition tuning to the Nth degree. This sat in a '73 crew cab, 2wd, 3 spd auto, 4:10 gears, 33" tires that was typically operating at 4500-10000 ft in elevation. The thing was a beast. I could pass traffic, going up passes, with a loaded trailer. It averaged low teens loaded or around town and high teens unloaded on the highway. But, I'd agree with others that a lift kit and 35s isn't going to be stingy with the gas and isn't the best tow vehicle around.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2310504
05/24/17 06:25 PM
05/24/17 06:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Manitoba, Canada
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Fuel mileage will be crap either way, and since your truck has the 440 in it already, I would stick with it. I'm guessing your 440 is a garden variety low CR 70's smogger 440. Since you don't know what that cam in there is, I would change it to a 10230700LK Lunati cam. It's a mild cam but good for a truck/puller. Stock intake manifold or an edelbrock performer (not the rpm) if you must have aluminum. Headers if you want, however in this case I don't really see them gaining you much of anything. A 2-1/4 dual exhaust would be ample and give you a little sound. Your key will be in the distributor and carb. Recurve your distributor properly, I agree with the numbers dezduster gave. The holley 700dp is a good carb, just not a good carb for a truck or a tow rig. Holley's aren't known for fuel mileage and a mechanical secondary carb is a bad idea on a tow rig. I've had good luck with my thermoquad, others have had good luck with their quadrajets. There's also that holley street demon that looks very nice. I wouldn't look at a conventional holley, even a vacuum secondary carb, for mpg in a tow vehicle.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2311005
05/25/17 04:03 PM
05/25/17 04:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,035 Missouri U.S.A.
71yelladustr
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2010
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Missouri U.S.A.
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Put a 5.9 in it. 5.9 Cummins that is. Early VE non intercooled 12 valve is about as simple and trouble-free as it gets.
392 gen III hemi on E-85 727 trans Dana 60 10.02@134
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2311006
05/25/17 04:05 PM
05/25/17 04:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Well, I am going to use the 1999 Ram 2500 as a benchmark. 13.8 mpg unloaded.
Here's what I spec'ed for a friend's '75 440 powered 4x4 truck. He was getting between 6 and 8mpg unloaded. KB184 pistons. Hughes HE1423 camshaft. Edelbrock Performer Can't remember carb. Headers and 2 1/2" duals MP high perf electronic ignition kit. Stock 452 heads with fresh valve grind. The machinist had to work to get the squish right and the compression right, finally left the door at about 9.5:1.
Mileage immediately improved to a hair over 15 mpg. The truck looked better, drove better, sounded better, hauled better, and just generally was better.
If you think about headers in terms of flow, then they don't help. The longer tubes of the headers keep the exhaust pulses separated and exert some sort of a ram tuning effect, that's why they are used.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 05/25/17 04:07 PM.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: 77ProStreet]
#2311502
05/26/17 01:07 PM
05/26/17 01:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,920 Richmond, Indiana
19swinger70
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master
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Richmond, Indiana
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I will choose a 440 over ANY small block ANY day. They are proven to get better fuel economy and obviously more power and torque. Plus, it would be sacrilege to remove a big block, especially from a stock BB truck and install a 360! You just don't do it. This is my opinion as well. In fact, I am trying to get rid of my 2001 4x4 to get a 60's or 70's big block rig. I only use a truck 2,000 miles a year, so fuel mileage means nothing to me.
1970 340 swinger. sublime 1967 barracuda fastback BB 55 Plymouth Project
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: 19swinger70]
#2311521
05/26/17 01:52 PM
05/26/17 01:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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I will choose a 440 over ANY small block ANY day. They are proven to get better fuel economy and obviously more power and torque. Plus, it would be sacrilege to remove a big block, especially from a stock BB truck and install a 360! You just don't do it. This is my opinion as well. In fact, I am trying to get rid of my 2001 4x4 to get a 60's or 70's big block rig. I only use a truck 2,000 miles a year, so fuel mileage means nothing to me. Me three...no way any SB is is going to be better for towing.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: Michael]
#2311809
05/26/17 11:56 PM
05/26/17 11:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,808 Between Houston & Galveston TX
SattyNoCar
Smarter than no class Flappergass by a mile
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Smarter than no class Flappergass by a mile
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,808
Between Houston & Galveston TX
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Here's my 'stock vs stock' story I've told here a few times over the years..... Back about '90 I had a '76 Club Cab, 2 wheel drive, 8ft bed, 1/2 ton with a 2bbl 360 in it. No matter what I did, that 360 would give me no more than 12 MPG. Put any kind of weight in the bed, or drive aggressively, I could EASILY drop it down to 8-9 MPG. I had a '77 440 out of a cop car that I swapped in. I never went in the engine, internally it was just as it was in the cop car. The engine was originally Lean Burn controlled, so I swapped on an earlier TQ and (stock) electronic ignition. I used headers only because I couldn't find manifolds. Behind the 440, I used a 727 out of a '77 truck that had a tighter convertor than the cop spec hi-stall unit. Out back I had the 3.23 9 1/4 rear out of the cop car. In day to day driving, I'd get no less than 12 MPG. If I drove sanely, I could hit 14 around town. But, I was addicted to the 4bbl wail of the TQ so, it was usually around 12.... I drove the truck from MA out to Phoenix, AZ with most of my worldly possessions in back when I went to school out there, and actually got 16 almost 17 MPG on the interstate. If I had to guess, I had about 800 lbs worth of stuff in the back. After the 440 swap, it NEVER dipped into the single digits as the 360 so easily did and the truck was easier and way more FUN to drive (ever throw 18" ft of truck sideways on a twisty dirt road? ) . Now, I understand even a cop spec 440 , especially a '77, isn't the most powerful engine out there, but the difference between it and the 360 was night and day.
John
The dream is dead, long live the dream.......😥
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2311829
05/27/17 12:45 AM
05/27/17 12:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,528 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
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I Live Here
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Freeport IL USA
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If your doing a lot of towing, its hard to beat the 440 in a gas motor, but its got to be built for towing, not a race car, or a 4x4 car crusher.
Until the efi Magnums, the best gas mileage I ever got out of a truck was with a big block truck. Once the efi Magnum came out, gas mileage was a different story all together. But the Magnum didn't do much better than an average LA 360 when you hooked the trailer behind it, and that was 2-3 mpg less then a big block with the same load, and the big block had more power pulling the load up hills then either small block.
That all said, a Magnum motor with a carb is stupid thinking, it won't perform to the level of the efi in either power or mileage. If your doing the Magnum, step up to the efi as well. I've heard the story about how you can't fix them if they break down on the road. Hey, reality check, unless you can fix your broke down carbed truck on the road, most shops are not equipped to fix a carbed truck either! Then chasing down parts could be a nightmare as well. Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Its time to learn modern tech, step into the new century, its been here for 17 years already and the last carbs were factory installed 11 years before that.
It would also be wrong not to point out all the stuff that needs to be changed when you put any small block where a big block was. Gene
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: poorboy]
#2314444
06/01/17 02:11 AM
06/01/17 02:11 AM
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 84 Wisconsin USA
themoparmanjc
member
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Wisconsin USA
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If your doing a lot of towing, its hard to beat the 440 in a gas motor, but its got to be built for towing, not a race car, or a 4x4 car crusher.
Until the efi Magnums, the best gas mileage I ever got out of a truck was with a big block truck. Once the efi Magnum came out, gas mileage was a different story all together. But the Magnum didn't do much better than an average LA 360 when you hooked the trailer behind it, and that was 2-3 mpg less then a big block with the same load, and the big block had more power pulling the load up hills then either small block.
That all said, a Magnum motor with a carb is stupid thinking, it won't perform to the level of the efi in either power or mileage. If your doing the Magnum, step up to the efi as well. I've heard the story about how you can't fix them if they break down on the road. Hey, reality check, unless you can fix your broke down carbed truck on the road, most shops are not equipped to fix a carbed truck either! Then chasing down parts could be a nightmare as well. Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Its time to learn modern tech, step into the new century, its been here for 17 years already and the last carbs were factory installed 11 years before that.
It would also be wrong not to point out all the stuff that needs to be changed when you put any small block where a big block was. Gene A carburetor has never left me stranded on the side of the road. For what they cost, a guy could keep a spare one with if he wanted to be paranoid
Don’t Buy From Famous Bob AKA Bob McCarty in Oklahoma. He is a Crook!
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: themoparmanjc]
#2314906
06/02/17 12:01 AM
06/02/17 12:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,528 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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If your doing a lot of towing, its hard to beat the 440 in a gas motor, but its got to be built for towing, not a race car, or a 4x4 car crusher.
Until the efi Magnums, the best gas mileage I ever got out of a truck was with a big block truck. Once the efi Magnum came out, gas mileage was a different story all together. But the Magnum didn't do much better than an average LA 360 when you hooked the trailer behind it, and that was 2-3 mpg less then a big block with the same load, and the big block had more power pulling the load up hills then either small block.
That all said, a Magnum motor with a carb is stupid thinking, it won't perform to the level of the efi in either power or mileage. If your doing the Magnum, step up to the efi as well. I've heard the story about how you can't fix them if they break down on the road. Hey, reality check, unless you can fix your broke down carbed truck on the road, most shops are not equipped to fix a carbed truck either! Then chasing down parts could be a nightmare as well. Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Its time to learn modern tech, step into the new century, its been here for 17 years already and the last carbs were factory installed 11 years before that.
It would also be wrong not to point out all the stuff that needs to be changed when you put any small block where a big block was. Gene A carburetor has never left me stranded on the side of the road. For what they cost, a guy could keep a spare one with if he wanted to be paranoid Between my wife and I, we have probably driven several hundred thousands of miles with efi vehicles and have never been stranded along the side of the road either. There have been more then a few times when I've helped people with carbed vehicles that were laying along the road dead. All this means is that now both of us will probably experience our first stranded along the road situation. I've got AAA, I'm good. Gene
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: themoparmanjc]
#2316342
06/05/17 12:18 AM
06/05/17 12:18 AM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6 Massachusetts
xjsc16x
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6
Massachusetts
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If your doing a lot of towing, its hard to beat the 440 in a gas motor, but its got to be built for towing, not a race car, or a 4x4 car crusher.
Until the efi Magnums, the best gas mileage I ever got out of a truck was with a big block truck. Once the efi Magnum came out, gas mileage was a different story all together. But the Magnum didn't do much better than an average LA 360 when you hooked the trailer behind it, and that was 2-3 mpg less then a big block with the same load, and the big block had more power pulling the load up hills then either small block.
That all said, a Magnum motor with a carb is stupid thinking, it won't perform to the level of the efi in either power or mileage. If your doing the Magnum, step up to the efi as well. I've heard the story about how you can't fix them if they break down on the road. Hey, reality check, unless you can fix your broke down carbed truck on the road, most shops are not equipped to fix a carbed truck either! Then chasing down parts could be a nightmare as well. Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Its time to learn modern tech, step into the new century, its been here for 17 years already and the last carbs were factory installed 11 years before that.
It would also be wrong not to point out all the stuff that needs to be changed when you put any small block where a big block was. Gene A carburetor has never left me stranded on the side of the road. For what they cost, a guy could keep a spare one with if he wanted to be paranoid It's got nothing to do with preferring carbed over EFI. Look at my profile picture...I daily a '99 Dakota R/T every day I know plenty about EFI and how to work on it. But retrofitting an old truck with new hardware and ECU requires tons of time and energy (nevermind cash for the efi setup, complete new gauges, new fuel pump setup, etc...) that is better spent on my daily.
Last edited by xjsc16x; 06/05/17 12:48 AM.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: poorboy]
#2316348
06/05/17 12:29 AM
06/05/17 12:29 AM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6 Massachusetts
xjsc16x
OP
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OP
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Joined: May 2017
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Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Replying again...like I said converting a '76 truck to EFI is way too expensive and time consuming. And way more money than converting a 5.9 mag to carbed. I already have the carb and I can get an HEI setup for next to nothing. All I'd need is an intake (which I know a buddy who has a spare one) and an inline fuel pump which are damn cheap and have pressure regulators already inside them.
Last edited by xjsc16x; 06/05/17 12:51 AM.
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: 77ProStreet]
#2316363
06/05/17 12:47 AM
06/05/17 12:47 AM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6 Massachusetts
xjsc16x
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Stick with the 440. Is it the original engine? I have no idea to be honest. It may have been a small block truck. This truck was a sort of Frankenstein build my dad did when he was in his 20s...He took his truck that had a good frame and cab and threw in the 383 out of his '67 coronet (which was totalled) and a set of axles out of a donor one ton truck. 383 block cracked (coolant leak + new england winter + refilled with water, you figure out the rest) and replaced with the current 440 from parts unknown. If it's something like three trips per year for distance of 200 miles or so, the 5.9 Mag will get the job done. You'll just have to drive in the slow lane, although with a jacked up Ramcharger I can't see you doing anything other than that.
A short wheelbase rig like a Ramcharger is too easy for the trailer to steer. When the trailer starts steering, your control goes right out the window. Thank God for electric trailer brakes. That's exactly what I'm looking at. Couple times a year nothing serious. If it was serious I'd be looking at newer 2500s. And I don't know where you got ramcharger from it's a W200 crew cab long bed. I think I'm putting this truck on the backburner for a while. I wanted to get it working but I want to do it right and right now I have better things to be worrying about. The truck has too much sentimental value in it for me to see myself getting rid of it unfortunately. Thanks everyone for your input and maybe when I get around to revisiting this beast I will come back to you all with updates. -JC
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Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig
[Re: xjsc16x]
#2316529
06/05/17 12:19 PM
06/05/17 12:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Then you also have to consider the cost of converting the magnum motor to carbs and standard ignition systems. Replying again...like I said converting a '76 truck to EFI is way too expensive and time consuming. And way more money than converting a 5.9 mag to carbed. I already have the carb and I can get an HEI setup for next to nothing. I converted my jeep to 5.2 magnum efi using a 94 ram engine harness and ECU. The cost was next to nothing using junkyard parts. In your case it wouldn't make sense anyway with you having the big block in there already.
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