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440 vs 360 for tow rig #2309308
05/22/17 08:27 PM
05/22/17 08:27 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6
Massachusetts
xjsc16x Offline OP
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xjsc16x  Offline OP
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Massachusetts
I have a '76 Power Wagon I'm trying to bring back to shape in order to turn it into a winter truck / tow my 18' boat or a car on a trailer when I need to. It's a 4x4 truck, kingpin D60 front and D60 rear on stock truck tires now but going to be on 34x12.5s soon.

My goal is mostly torque and something that's not going to eat a hole in my wallet with gas, although with no OD and 4.11 gears I'm already kind of shooting myself in the foot here.

Currently it has a big 440 sitting in it with a large (no idea the specs) cam and a holley 700 DP on top. Other than that I believe it's mostly stock. If it matters I can try to pull away the grime and find what casting the heads are at some point. Sucks gas like crazy but will roast the tires whenever I want...lol.

To the point: I like the idea of keeping the 440, but I think in the long run would it be better if I just put a small block in it and call it a day? Plus, I could keep the 440 for something more worthy of the power (charger?.. drop it into my dakota r/t?... who knows hahah).

I can get my hands on a 360 magnum for basically nothing, throw an eddy carb intake and an LA dizzy on it and a small cam and call it a day.

Which would work better?

Last edited by xjsc16x; 05/22/17 08:28 PM.
Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309417
05/22/17 11:09 PM
05/22/17 11:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 774
Midland,Tx
wyldebill Offline
super stock
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Midland,Tx
Are you planning on rebuilding either one? 360's aren't known for milage. If you were building one, I'd do either. I would build the biggest engine I could. Both engines respond well to stroke.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309459
05/23/17 12:01 AM
05/23/17 12:01 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 6
Massachusetts
xjsc16x Offline OP
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I am planning on rebuilding whichever one I decide to go with, yes. Right now the cam bearings in the 440 are wiped.

That being said, a new bottom end and balancing really isn't in my budget. Stock bottom end is a must, but I'll still go in there and replace all the bearings and hone the cylinders while I'm at it.

I've been looking up heads/cam combos for both, obviously going carbed but also need suggestions on what intakes are good for low end torquey motors

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309477
05/23/17 12:29 AM
05/23/17 12:29 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
Iowan Offline
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Lost in Time
Are you planing on building a transmission at this time also?


Have a great day
Iowan

"obsolete is neat"

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: Iowan] #2309522
05/23/17 01:36 AM
05/23/17 01:36 AM
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Posts: 993
Mid Michigan
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Mr. Smurf Offline
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Mid Michigan
I would stay with the 440, just go with an rv cam, vac secondary carb.
Lifting the truck & big tires will shitcan your mileage also.

No matter what you do, gas mileage will be bad.

My stock 89 w250 auto with 4:11's will get 12mpg, the stock 76 d300 dualie dump with a 400 2 barrel carb, np435 and 4:56's gets 8mpg.


Live with it........


Ed

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309558
05/23/17 03:17 AM
05/23/17 03:17 AM
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Nevada
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dezduster Offline
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Nevada
440 hone re ring mild 220--226 duration cam, Qjet carb, 14degrees initial timing 36 total all in by 2800 12 degree vacuum advance for a total of 48 to 50 at cruise and 60 mph will get you 15ish mpg. The holly double pumper on a truck will just use fuel to use fuel. Yes you could tune it to do really well BUT can you tune yourself to be fuel efficient using it?.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309565
05/23/17 03:44 AM
05/23/17 03:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,993
Salem
Grizzly Offline
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Salem
"Which would work better?"

Neither.


Park the '76-440.

Take all that hard-earned money you are wanting to blow on tires/lift/engine and:

Buy yourself a 2wd 318/360 2nd Gen Ram (they go for $1000 to $3500 depending on miles) and tow your boat and car hauler without a worry. Drive it all winter and pat me on the back everytime that thing fires up and gets you where you want to be instead of fighting with 41-year old technology.

And, get 15 to 17mpg empty if you drive it right and do some proven upgrades.


Mo' Farts

Moderated by "tbagger".
Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309576
05/23/17 04:50 AM
05/23/17 04:50 AM
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Posts: 1,944
woodcrest, CA
magnum440d100 Offline
top fuel
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woodcrest, CA
I'm in the same boat, so to speak. I have a 74 w200 with a 440 that just developed a knock. I'm building a 360 with 9.2:1 Pistons, .486 cam, scat rods, etc, to toss in there while I pull the 440 apart to fix it. It's been rebuilt once, and I'm hoping that a crank kit will fix it.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309606
05/23/17 08:40 AM
05/23/17 08:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Trumbauersville PA
Buy the 2nd Gen truck , good idea....if you get a good one.

360's tow well, but gas mileage sucks....440 will do about 3-5 miles better per gallon.
intake Edelbrock Performer RPM
Cam HUG SEH1016BL-12 ,
Carb.. Thermoquaud make sure it works
.
Before I laid my 78 D300 rclb 440 4 speed dually to rest in 2012,
around town it would do about 12mpg on a good day, 14 on a great day.
on the highway about 12 no matter what day , throw 7500lbs trailer it would do 10-12 depending on the hills and speed.


Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309753
05/23/17 01:36 PM
05/23/17 01:36 PM
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ohio
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bbtrux Offline
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ohio
You will never be remotely happy with the 360. I promise you that . Guarrantee you wont see 8 mpg, and itll be a slug.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2309831
05/23/17 03:23 PM
05/23/17 03:23 PM
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Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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Canada
Stick with the 440. Is it the original engine?

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: WO23Coronet] #2309849
05/23/17 03:51 PM
05/23/17 03:51 PM
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dogdays Offline
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It's not a 360!!! It's a 5.9 mag. There is enough different between the Mag motors and LA motors that the Mags deserve their own monicker.

Here's the biggest question of all...How many trips towing per year and how many miles per round trip?

If it's something like three trips per year for distance of 200 miles or so, the 5.9 Mag will get the job done. You'll just have to drive in the slow lane, although with a jacked up Ramcharger I can't see you doing anything other than that.

A short wheelbase rig like a Ramcharger is too easy for the trailer to steer. When the trailer starts steering, your control goes right out the window. Thank God for electric trailer brakes.

This summer I took a trip in a low mileage Ram 2500. I mostly drove between 70 and 80, with no excursions off the highway. For the whole trip I averaged 13.8 mpg. That's with the bed empty and the tires inflated properly.

There is a whole lot of parts changing, swapping smallblock for bigblock.

I have made several tows over 1000miles using a 318-powered D100. But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, and every time I come back from one of those trips, I say never again, It isn't just the semis passing on the uphill, it's also white knuckle time the whole distance.

R.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: dezduster] #2309902
05/23/17 05:16 PM
05/23/17 05:16 PM
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Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Originally Posted By dezduster
440 hone re ring mild 220--226 duration cam, Qjet carb, 14degrees initial timing 36 total all in by 2800 12 degree vacuum advance for a total of 48 to 50 at cruise and 60 mph will get you 15ish mpg. The holly double pumper on a truck will just use fuel to use fuel. Yes you could tune it to do really well BUT can you tune yourself to be fuel efficient using it?.


2nd this approach. I had a similar build; 440, +.030 with tight quench, smallish 224 cam, blueprinted chambers with mild porting, port matched intake, dry film lube and thermal barrier coatings everywhere, headers, with carb (AFB) and ignition tuning to the Nth degree. This sat in a '73 crew cab, 2wd, 3 spd auto, 4:10 gears, 33" tires that was typically operating at 4500-10000 ft in elevation. The thing was a beast. I could pass traffic, going up passes, with a loaded trailer. It averaged low teens loaded or around town and high teens unloaded on the highway.

But, I'd agree with others that a lift kit and 35s isn't going to be stingy with the gas and isn't the best tow vehicle around.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: TC@HP2] #2310046
05/23/17 10:45 PM
05/23/17 10:45 PM
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IN
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ahy Offline
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I think either engine could get the job done OK. The 360 might need (even more) gear for good towing with tall tires. Neither would win a fuel economy competition.

There would be a lot involved in changing to 360 and less performance. I also would suggest freshen the 440. Loose the DP carb and "big" cam and get a vac secondary carb and RV type cam. If budget allows, set it up with closed chamber heads with quench and decent CR for both power and economy.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2310146
05/24/17 01:54 AM
05/24/17 01:54 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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I had a 74 1/2 ton Dodge 318 with 2.92 rear that towing my open trailer with a 64 Savoy on it would gain speed going up steep hills. After the second near miss with trailer sway I went back to the GMC 3/4 ton that was a dog, but safer. No way I would tow anything with a Ramcharger (I had a 1990 one). That 318 really surprised me with the pulling power it had.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2310504
05/24/17 06:25 PM
05/24/17 06:25 PM
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Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Fuel mileage will be crap either way, and since your truck has the 440 in it already, I would stick with it. I'm guessing your 440 is a garden variety low CR 70's smogger 440. Since you don't know what that cam in there is, I would change it to a 10230700LK Lunati cam. It's a mild cam but good for a truck/puller. Stock intake manifold or an edelbrock performer (not the rpm) if you must have aluminum. Headers if you want, however in this case I don't really see them gaining you much of anything. A 2-1/4 dual exhaust would be ample and give you a little sound. Your key will be in the distributor and carb. Recurve your distributor properly, I agree with the numbers dezduster gave. The holley 700dp is a good carb, just not a good carb for a truck or a tow rig. Holley's aren't known for fuel mileage and a mechanical secondary carb is a bad idea on a tow rig. I've had good luck with my thermoquad, others have had good luck with their quadrajets. There's also that holley street demon that looks very nice. I wouldn't look at a conventional holley, even a vacuum secondary carb, for mpg in a tow vehicle.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2311005
05/25/17 04:03 PM
05/25/17 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,035
Missouri U.S.A.
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71yelladustr Offline
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Put a 5.9 in it. 5.9 Cummins that is. Early VE non intercooled 12 valve is about as simple and trouble-free as it gets.


392 gen III hemi on E-85 727 trans Dana 60
10.02@134
Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #2311006
05/25/17 04:05 PM
05/25/17 04:05 PM
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dogdays Offline
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Well, I am going to use the 1999 Ram 2500 as a benchmark. 13.8 mpg unloaded.

Here's what I spec'ed for a friend's '75 440 powered 4x4 truck. He was getting between 6 and 8mpg unloaded.
KB184 pistons.
Hughes HE1423 camshaft.
Edelbrock Performer
Can't remember carb.
Headers and 2 1/2" duals
MP high perf electronic ignition kit.
Stock 452 heads with fresh valve grind.
The machinist had to work to get the squish right and the compression right, finally left the door at about 9.5:1.

Mileage immediately improved to a hair over 15 mpg. The truck looked better, drove better, sounded better, hauled better, and just generally was better.

If you think about headers in terms of flow, then they don't help. The longer tubes of the headers keep the exhaust pulses separated and exert some sort of a ram tuning effect, that's why they are used.

R.

Last edited by dogdays; 05/25/17 04:07 PM.
Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: xjsc16x] #2311076
05/25/17 05:53 PM
05/25/17 05:53 PM
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Posts: 5,385
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Pikes Peak Country
KB184s are what I used in my build. Yes, they took some work to get squish and compression to work, but once it was there, DANG! I did use the small spec Summit cam and 346 heads. The Hughes cam might get a bit more area under the curve.

While it made loads of torque right off idle, its power wasn't too shabby either. A dyno day with some buddies had my towing motor putting down numbers that made some of their performance builds look weak.

Re: 440 vs 360 for tow rig [Re: TC@HP2] #2311295
05/26/17 12:33 AM
05/26/17 12:33 AM
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Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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Canada
What did it dyno?

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