Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2297248
05/01/17 04:57 PM
05/01/17 04:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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yes John's Relay diagram will do the job JUST if the relay really don't work with low voltage either... if does, will need a diode coming out from ballast or just right before the splice to feed the 86 prong to keep safe from the low voltage triggering the relay
Don't worry about ECU... is designed to work on the way it is and it has being in that way since ever
the death time between the switching is not critical, and is in fact unnapreciable. If was important, system wouldn't work
Last edited by NachoRT74; 05/01/17 05:01 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2297261
05/01/17 05:16 PM
05/01/17 05:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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ok, I don't think will be critical either... MSD ( even digital units ) works the same on same Mopars system. I'm pretty sure the points inside meets at certain point. I actually never have advertised a death point when cranking. You can see that while you are starting up your car at brake light on cluster. The RUN and START switching is noticeable on that light, when cranking the brake light dims a bit because is getting feedback from the ign2 circuit through the ballast up to the ign1 circuit
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2297380
05/01/17 08:48 PM
05/01/17 08:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,888 MI, usa
dvw
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[quote=dvw]Like John said. Splice the dk blue and the brown together from the ignition switch. Neither is reduced voltage. Doug wrong... brown circuit is allways hot while in RUN, NOT COMING FROM IGN SWITCH but from ballast, so it gets reduced voltage. Thats how the coil is allways hot too check it and think on it He can't remove ballast &/or splice brown and blue circuits together using stock system ignition, becauise will overheat the coil [/quote Check the factory service manual. I've done many. Dark blue wire from the ignition switch is hot in Ignition (key on) but dead in crank. The brown wire from the ignition switch feeds the ballast with 12 volts in crank only (dead in ignition position).The original intention was to bypass the ballast in crank for full ignition feed voltage to the coil in crank only (brown wire), then to ballast voltage (dark blue wire to the positive side of the coil. That's why the brown wire is on the output side of the ballast, it bypasses it. Doug
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2297547
05/02/17 01:39 AM
05/02/17 01:39 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Correct, brown wire bypasses the ballast during cranking saving the low voltage for a stronger start up, then when ign switch returns to RUN, the brown wire is not anymore feeded by ign switch BUT keeps linked to the ign circuit through the ballast buddy!! So KEEPS HOT unless you disconect it from ballast, which is not posible because is spliced into the same coil wire and if you disconect it, will stall the engine
TEST IT! Start up the engine and test for voltage at ign switch brown wire and will get a low voltage power there. Is te same power the coil is getting!
I can't believe this si being really discussed! Its so clear!
Last edited by NachoRT74; 05/02/17 01:40 AM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2297748
05/02/17 02:39 PM
05/02/17 02:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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yes the brown wire bypasses the ballast for FULL batt power at coil, full 12 volts from ign switch through Ign 2 circuit instead the reduced voltage coming from Ballast from Ign 1 in RUN.
BUT the brown wire while is connected to the ballast is ALLWAYS HOT... no matter if not being feeded from Ign 2 at ign switch. The ballast IS A SPLICE that links both circuits, just a diff voltage rates on each side due the Ballast propperties
isn't the coil wire allways hot ? full power while cranking from ign 2 or reduced voltage from Ign 1 through the ballast is allways hot. If wasn't on that way, the engine wouldn't work, that's a fact... or isn't a fact ?
If the Ign 2 wire coming from the ign switch is SPLICED INTO THE BALLAST end to feed the coil wire at full power when cranking ( bypassing the ballast )... doens't mean that THE WIRE coming from the ign switch will be ALSO hot no matter if is not cranking BECAUSE IS ON THE SAME LINE THE COIL IS BEING FEEDED AT ANY IGN SWITCH STAGE ?
so, the ign 2 circuit is ALLWAYS HOT just like THE COIL, on same voltage rates than the COIL on any of the stages. There is no way to cut the power on ign 2 circuit wire between ballast and ign switch because is spliced on the same line than the coil is being feeded!!!!! The ign switch is just selecting what voltage rate will source the coil... full while cranking, or reduced at run because that source is before the ballast.
if the Relay suggested to be used to feed 12 volts to the EFI, is able to be activated at 86 prong at the reduced voltage the coil is getting, THEN the 87 prong will be allways closed to the 30 prong AT THE REDUCED VOLTAGE TOO.
what we don't know is IF the relay actually will respond or not to the low voltage rate.
IF the relay reacts to the low voltage input at the 86 prong, THEN a diode will be required to be sure the 86 prong just will react at the bypass step coming from the ign switch on ign 2, and not react to the low voltage rate being feeded back from the ballast end.
is clear now ?
I don't know how explain it clearer if is not now
If the relay doens't respond to the low voltage rate, then won't be a problem... so we need to figure it out.
Need to note the low voltage rate coming from ballast is not a constant and changes with temperature and load going through... so teh relay COULD be responding sometimes yes and sometimes not.
conclusion... IMHO, I will add a diode on the ballast output to the ign 2 circuit ( anywhere between the ballast and the splice to feed 86 prong, BUT NOT between the splice and the 86 prong )
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298014
05/03/17 12:07 AM
05/03/17 12:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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4.5 to 9 volts is the usual... changes with the load and temp
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298319
05/03/17 03:17 PM
05/03/17 03:17 PM
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Posts: 26,017 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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If concerned about feedback from the ballast, add a diode to the IGN2 circuit but a diode connecting the IGN2 to the IGN1 would provide a constant 12V source without the need for a relay.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2298441
05/03/17 07:08 PM
05/03/17 07:08 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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If concerned about feedback from the ballast, add a diode to the IGN2 circuit but a diode connecting the IGN2 to the IGN1 would provide a constant 12V source without the need for a relay. As mentioned, a diode should do the trick without the need of a relay. I don't run the stock style ignition (with ballast resistor), so I just connect both wires together, and use an aftermarket CD ignition box.
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298608
05/04/17 12:10 AM
05/04/17 12:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Eeehm... if splice both without the relay, will be bypassing the ballast even with the diode
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298624
05/04/17 12:40 AM
05/04/17 12:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Well, is true, but not on the position its on the diagram. Will need to be making the brigde or "jumper" between both circuits just right where the relay is, but diode triangle pointing out to the ign 1 circuit... then take the signal to the EFI from the ign 1 ( RUN ) circuit.
If want to use a Relay, should be just like the upgraded diagram by John.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298627
05/04/17 12:46 AM
05/04/17 12:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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That Diode in place of the relay should in fact give more power to the ignition ECU while cranking, and won't make dim out the brake light in cluster.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298633
05/04/17 12:50 AM
05/04/17 12:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,098 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Sorry the multiple post but think on details after every post.
The link with the diode couldn't affect the ballast performance adding extra load or circuits to the coil circuit ( by the default on the jumper ) while in Run ?
Last edited by NachoRT74; 05/04/17 12:52 AM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Which wire for 12V during crank and run?
[Re: BDW]
#2298670
05/04/17 02:07 AM
05/04/17 02:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 198 Hershey, PA
73MagDuster
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Same problem with Gen3 Hemi swaps using Hotwire harness. Easiest solution is to wire in a push button start using low amp 12v push button to trigger starter relay. Turn ignition to run, which will power up the EFI then push button to start. Done.
Last edited by 73MagDuster; 05/04/17 02:07 AM.
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