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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: Efidart]
#2263599
03/05/17 11:16 AM
03/05/17 11:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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The question I get is "do I NEED the 60-2 or 36-1 instead of a 4 magnet wheel". As far as resolution, we have never detected one iota of increased resolution with more teeth. So, is it better? maybe. Is it any better that you will ever SEE? highly unlikely. If you have a cam sensor, I personally see zero need for more teeth and if you don't have cam sensor, more teeth allows you the option of the waste fire coils if you choose to run them.
Most people already have a crank trigger, so leaving the flying magnet wheel and bracket in place and simply screwing in the Holley hall effect sensor is the quick and painless way to go Monte- I'm running an MSD crank trigger with dist as cam sync and had 0 problems. Only time I ever see timing error is idle (1-2.5% at max as logged on my MS3PRO) which at 20 degrees is only .2-.5 of a degree. On anything above idle the timing error is always 0, have never seen timing error on transient rpm or any type of load above 1200~RPM. Switching to IGN1A coils now and going distributorless begs the question.. Now I'm ditching the distributor should I goto a 36-1 wheel from the flying magnet. I went with the SD concepts jeep cam sync adapter to ditch the distributor, I think now I'm just worrying about the crank trigger for nothing again. Doing the math.. at 7,000 RPM it is checking crank position 466 times per second and verifying 116 times #1 cylinder position. On a 36 tooth wheel it checks crank position at 4200 times per second but still verifying #1 cylinder position 116 times also. Being that the thing that matters is #1 cylinder position, the number of times it verifies in-between shouldn't matter as the crankshaft does not change being why we see no difference and no timing error? Am I on the right thought process? At 1,000 rpm idle it is only checking the cam position 16 times a second or so with 66 syncs of the crank position. Being at idle the crank accelerates and decelerates on a randomish pattern is why I am seeing the small amount of timing error. When the crankshaft is accelerating only (Or under a load) with more cam sync the timing error goes away. The MSD flying magnet hasn't failed me or made timing as verified at RPM waiver. So why change to make idle timing error that doesn't really matter (Also the Jesel belt may be stretching .1-.3 of a degree anyways at idle causing the ecu to detect and generate timing error vs belt being under tension at rpm??? It's a dilemma that makes me think if its not broke don't fix it.. but the other side of me thinks.. More info the better. Though is it really when the Cam only syncs once a 4 stroke engine cycle and the crank knows 8 times between that where the crank is. Maybe I should ditch it and go back to a Chrysler lean burn  . Overthinking sometimes hurts. The cam sensor doesn't tell the ecu where #1 is, it only tells the ecu what stroke the engine is in referenced to crank sensor position. The cam sensor sensor can, in most cases, be in a wide swing of positions (90 degrees or so) and still have no effect on timing or fuel. If you have the flying magnet, I would suggest you stay with it.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: Efidart]
#2263667
03/05/17 01:06 PM
03/05/17 01:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,573
Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,573
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Maybe I should ditch it and go back to a Chrysler lean burn . Overthinking sometimes hurts. Now that is funny! Good discussion.
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2263712
03/05/17 02:07 PM
03/05/17 02:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
Efidart
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
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The cam sensor doesn't tell the ecu where #1 is, it only tells the ecu what stroke the engine is in referenced to crank sensor position. The cam sensor sensor can, in most cases, be in a wide swing of positions (90 degrees or so) and still have no effect on timing or fuel.
If you have the flying magnet, I would suggest you stay with it.
The cam sensor tells the ECU which cylinder is cylinder #1 in the firing order. The position can be almost anywhere before #1 TDC as most can compensate. Always has been this way regardless of the ECU including OEMs, remembering the cam only rotates once to 2 turns of the crankshaft.. It cannot be on the wrong stroke as your distributor will deliver the spark to the proper cylinder in the firing order. If you had COP.. and the cam sensor went, it will not run or will run in a wasted spark environment with a -2 wheel. Holley Cam sensor setup I think I will stay with the MSD crank trigger, looking at the logs I did have a few places it had timing error but not enough of any consequence. Also looking at trigger wheel logs it never missed a beat ever in hours of logging. Why fix something that isn't broke eh?
TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car.
Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015
Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017
Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2263762
03/05/17 02:59 PM
03/05/17 02:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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Yes, I guess in the case of a 4 magnet wheel, it indicates which of 8 pulses will be #1. After re-reading, I realize you weren't thinking that the cam sensor has any effect on timing, only indicating which pulse is #1. My error.
In multi tooth wheels, the cam sensor only needs to indicate what stroke. The engine would run with a COP and no cam as you stated. But that wouldn't happen with a flying magnet type crank sensor and COP. The ecu would have no idea where the crank is without a cam signal unlike a multi tooth wheel.
I know how long you've been doing this. Don't know why I would think you didn't know the workings!
By the way. Nice work with that beast. Saw you at "Da Grove" last year, but you looked kinda busy.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2263913
03/05/17 07:24 PM
03/05/17 07:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
Efidart
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
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I've watched your car for a long time too and the progress you've had it kicks ass, It's a little shiner than mine  . That is a big plus running a -2 wheel as it can run sequential regardless of the cam sensor working. Being I'm going to CNP it could be a life saver... The idea of bolting one in direct place of my flying magnet wheel is so attractive... I'm just so torn as in reality it is and isn't any gain. I just be happy with my new Rossler Pro Mod Max trans and getting it down the track than sweating the small things. Come say Hi on DW this year if ya see me, good to put a face to the name.
TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car.
Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015
Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017
Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: Efidart]
#2263998
03/05/17 09:34 PM
03/05/17 09:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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That is a big plus running a -2 wheel as it can run sequential regardless of the cam sensor working. Being I'm going to CNP it could be a life saver...
The idea of bolting one in direct place of my flying magnet wheel is so attractive... A -2 wheel allows CNP in "waste spark" mode only and the injectors are not sequential. The benefit of using a cam sensor is that it allows fully sequential injection and the CNP ignition is not waste spark. Why is this better? Because now you can tune both fuel and spark on an individual cylinder basis. Most NA engines do not need this individual cylinder tuning but blower engines can benefit greatly since charge distribution can be an issue.
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2264075
03/05/17 11:17 PM
03/05/17 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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Yeah to be clear... the multi tooth wheels will run waste spark without a cam signal with COP, but they will run.
A flying magnet with COP will not run at all if you lose the cam sync.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2264286
03/06/17 12:53 PM
03/06/17 12:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
Efidart
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 200
AB
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It is amazing how expensive injectors can still be out 2-3% between each other when tuning off EGTs balancing holes.
An MS3Pro will still support semi-sequential fueling at least if the cam sync dies on a -2 wheel, along with the wasted spark.
AndyF what is one of those wheels worth that bolts in place of a crank trigger??
TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car.
Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015
Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017
Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#2265999
03/09/17 01:40 AM
03/09/17 01:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
AndyF
OP
I Win
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OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
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It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency. Have you considered special V pulleys to compensate for the thickness? Rich, I mocked the trigger wheel up on an ATI damper and the Doty pulley can be made to line up with a stock water pump pulley so that isn't the issue. The real issue is that the trigger wheel diameter is too large to fit a stock water pump. The only way to make the trigger wheel smaller is to have a smaller damper but ATI does not make a small diameter damper for BB Mopar engines. So this approach wouldn't work with a stock water pump. It fits fine on a race engine with an electric water pump which of course is what I designed it to do. If a person has a race engine with an electric water pump and they want a crank pulley for a vacuum pump then typically the spacing doesn't matter that much since it is all custom mounts anyway.
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2266943
03/10/17 05:46 PM
03/10/17 05:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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My Doty pulley just came in yesterday so I plan to fire it up with the new wheel this weekend. Such a nice looking setup!
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2267643
03/11/17 08:03 PM
03/11/17 08:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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I got Andy's wheel mounted up this afternoon and fired up. I need to go snap a picture of the assembled setup up close but I do have a video link. I locked the timing, unplugged the injectors and cranked it a few times to adjust the trigger offset for the new missing tooth location. Once I confirmed timing during cranking I plugged the injectors in and fired it off with the timing locked at 35* to recheck it, all was good so I turned the timing table back on and it is ready to eat. Here is a short video of the car at idle. The view on the laptop is a composite trigger log built into Tunerstudio the program that runs the megasquirt. The bottom signal is the crank teeth and you can see where the missing one is. The top line is the cam sync. https://youtu.be/oRwsDMBq8e8Another top notch product from Andy.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: cudadon]
#2269400
03/14/17 03:01 PM
03/14/17 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
AndyF
OP
I Win
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OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
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Andy is that timing pointer yours? I didn't see it on your site or mancini's.
If so will it work with msd trigger brkt? And how much?
Thanks, Don Yes the timing pointer is mine. Part number AR177K is the version that works with the MSD trigger wheel but that version has a 3/4 inch thread. I had to make a new trigger bracket for the Holley sensors since the use a smaller 12x1mm thread. http://arengineering.com/products/crank-trigger-kit/
Last edited by AndyF; 03/14/17 03:02 PM.
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Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI
[Re: 340Cuda]
#2270239
03/15/17 09:12 PM
03/15/17 09:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
AndyF
OP
I Win
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OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,248
Oregon
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Andy,
Do you have anything similar for a small block mopar, with or without the crank trigger mount? If not do you know anyone that does?
Thanks,
Bill MSD sells a flying magnet SB crank trigger wheel and mount kit. Not sure if anyone else does.
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