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Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Alaskan_TA] #2231097
01/09/17 09:19 PM
01/09/17 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted By Alaskan_TA
Lets try it this way with the dates of your own examples for the 'documentation'..........

FACTS;

1. The original Mylar door stickers had to show the actual build month & year per Federal Law. So the date shown indicates the FINAL assembly date when the fully completed car was physically ready to drive out of the plant.

2. As such, the Mylar door sticker was printed & applied right before each car left the plant.

So with those two facts in mind, if the Mylar door stickers on two of the three examples are actual originals showing March 1970, then it is impossible that they left the plant with engines cast in April.

So here is an elective homework assignment for you, note each of these things;

Date on the original Mylar.

Casting date on the engine.

Final assembly date on the engine.

If those three dates are original to any of the examples, neither of the last two dates will predate the date on the Mylar.

Hopefully that helps explain it?






Barry, do you mean it is impossible for a car with a March 1970 door tag to have an engine with an April 1970 casting daye?? Because the last sentence does not say that?? (PREDATE)??? The engine casting date has to predate the door sticker, correct???

Last edited by NortheastMopar; 01/09/17 09:20 PM.
Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2231099
01/09/17 09:22 PM
01/09/17 09:22 PM
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Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA Offline
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That is what I said.

Definition of predate at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/predate if you need it?

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Alaskan_TA] #2231101
01/09/17 09:27 PM
01/09/17 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Alaskan_TA
That is what I said.

Definition of predate at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/predate if you need it?


I must be dumb. You say neither of the last two dates will predate (meaning to be dated before the talked about door tag) which means they will be dates after the door tag, which contradicts what you said earlier in the same post that a door tag in March cannot have a motor in the car which was cast in April???

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2231107
01/09/17 09:34 PM
01/09/17 09:34 PM
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Hamtramck, PA
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Good catch, sorry everyone.

I am sick & on meds, I'll come back with a clear head when I am well.

Until then;

So here is an elective homework assignment for you, note each of these things;

Date on the original Mylar.

Casting date on the engine.

Final assembly date on the engine.

If those three dates are original to any of the examples, neither of the dates on the engine will be dated after the date on the Mylar.

Hopefully I got it right that time. More chicken soup & rest is on my menu.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2231180
01/09/17 11:05 PM
01/09/17 11:05 PM
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I had ask about trans numbers because they were to my understanding stamped at the same time with the same machine. NortheastMopar do you have trans number information?


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Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: mopar346] #2231726
01/10/17 05:05 PM
01/10/17 05:05 PM
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after a little "internet research" I came up with a few interesting facts.
1. Mylar sticker = Motor Vehicle Certification Label (official name)
2. content of certification = name of manufacturer, date of the applicable U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE.
3. The Label must be attached in a way that it may not altered or remover with out destroying it.
4. The Label must be made in contrasting color with block letters black in color and 3/32's tall
5. label to be attached on door near latch assembly (other locations provided also ,shortened for post).
there are more requirements but for the sake of necessity of the point I'm about to make I'll stop here.

the point I am going to make is not speculation, but more towards "documentation". meaning I obtained my information from a U.S. Government website, and am awaiting a printed copy of a Government Document. Certification Standards 49 cfr part 567.6 (1). the trickey part is finding the ordinal bill that was introduced in 1969 for the 1970 model year and that is the copy I am waiting to receive. as soon as i received I will post for all to see .
The point being that the manufacture had complete control of how they certified they were in compliance of FEDERAL MOTOR VECHILE SAFETY STANARDS. What Chrysler did was certify that the vehicle in question was "compliant" to the FEDERAL MOTOR VECHILE SAFETY STANDARDS in effect on that particular date. That is not necessarily the date it was manufactured ,but the date of safety standards that were in in effect at the manufacturing. the manufacture's were given several compliance statements to chose from and it was up to their discretion to chose which best fit their product. There was also no certain time period that the MOTOR VECHILE CERTIFICATION LABEL was printed or placed on the vechile other than before it left the manufacturing plant. The "Standards " amended quite a few times since then , But 1970 model year was the first for the certification label ,with the exception of the 1969 mid year Daytona which should be self explanatory. all in all I think that the certification sticker is not the actual date of manufacturing, but instead noting that the vehicle was built under those standards in effect on that date range. note that if it was ment to be the production date it probably had a day date listed. It was required to certify compliance with federal safety stanards.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: mopar346] #2231744
01/10/17 05:44 PM
01/10/17 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted By mopar346
I had ask about trans numbers because they were to my understanding stamped at the same time with the same machine. NortheastMopar do you have trans number information?


Sorry, my 4 speed was a 71 dated tranny. I do not believe it has the close ratio gearbox that they put in the T/A cars. I think that the close ratio gears were maybe good on a winding track, but I like my 4 speed just the way it is. I would have to drive a T/A with the original close ratio to actually see how much different it really is. Maybe enough to win a race, but that was never a concern.. I like driving the car and am not into racing.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: NortheastMopar] #2231787
01/10/17 06:53 PM
01/10/17 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted By NortheastMopar
Sorry, my 4 speed was a 71 dated tranny.


Sorry, I had gotten you confused with the OP since you were asking about the door sticker and the whole pre-date conversation.

The question had been ask of the OP about if the trans' had numbers in them. The assertion (or maybe his question) is that it is possible that the blocks came no numbers for the factory and not changed later in life. The point of the trans question was that they were stamped at the same time and if they had numbers stamped in them originally then it is highly doubtful the engine didn't get stamped, it is possible but unlikely. If the trans' in the cars in questions are not original then again support powertrain replacements through the years. I think the question of engine assembly date is also a very valid question in that surely even the OP would not consider that a engine being built significantly after the SPD could have come in the car originally. I believe based on common knowledge that the casting date is enough to blow the theory up but the OP doesn't what to believe that and yes I know many commonly held beliefs have been debunked over the years.

Trans numbers and engine build dates would be valuable info in this thread.


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Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: mopar346] #2232263
01/11/17 01:40 PM
01/11/17 01:40 PM
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it seems that several members here that are confused or don 't have a "clear head" when asked about documentation, yet they still want to pass on information to others and expect it to be "known/accepted history". in my original post I had asked if anyone had any "info" on T/A or AAR built 3-70 to early 4-70. what I have received is several "opinions". as I have stated "opinions are respected and valued but sometimes differ with others". Opinions are usually supported based on some type of "documentation". what I clearly and respectfully asked is "do have any documentation "? Every time I ask about documentation the question is ignored! I receive replies like "its impossible "or "The original Mylar door sticker had to show actual build month & year per Federal Law." or "you are barking up the wrong tree". Those are all answers I received when asking about documentation.
I'll try this from another angle.On what dates and locations in 1970 were the SCCA's races scheduled? When was the first SCCA race actually held in 1970. On what deadline date did manufacture's have to comply with SCCA's application and requirements?
As the official T/A Registry you should have some of that documentation I would hope. If so would you please post?
If you would please ,The number of T/A and AAR's produced between 3-70 and 4-30-70 with vin #'s and other info if available?

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2232302
01/11/17 03:16 PM
01/11/17 03:16 PM
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Here's the SCCA schedule for 1970

561462_395457947180737_1427826064_n.jpg

1970 Challenger T/A 4 speed
Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2232304
01/11/17 03:20 PM
01/11/17 03:20 PM
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Franklin Square, NY
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If this helps you in your quest, my AAR is as follows:
-Door label: 3-70
-Fender Tag: 4-03
-Numbers matching engine & automatic transmission.

-Lou

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: NortheastMopar] #2232355
01/11/17 05:07 PM
01/11/17 05:07 PM

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Originally Posted By NortheastMopar

Barry, do you mean it is impossible for a car with a March 1970 door tag to have an engine with an April 1970 casting daye?? Because the last sentence does not say that?? (PREDATE)??? The engine casting date has to predate the door sticker, correct???

Part of the problem here is that reality is sometimes ignored by the "experts" and their opinion becomes protocol for Industry possibilities. I've seen many times where an "expert" thinks that their years of research justifies them filling in the blanks and their limited knowledge about a topic becomes the new reality. I know of 2 documented St. Louis cars where their Engines were replaced AFTER the final Inspection had taken place. Apparently, the Worker who transported them to the holding area for shipping, got a little rambunctious and decided to have some fun along the way. They blew the Engine up and a replacement block was installed before the vehicle ever made it to the Dealership. I have also documented a vehicle where a quarter glass was dated 2 months after the VIN label date, the Fender Tag and other dated components on the vehicle. The Original Owner remembered that the quarter glass was broken at the Factory and it sat for 6 weeks while waiting for a replacement piece. Who knows why it took so long to get a replacement piece. One would think that they would have pirated one from the Assembly Line inventory but they obviously did not.

I also know of scenarios where cars were built, driven to an Inventory Lot, the carburetors were removed from those Inventoried vehicles, taken back into the Plant and used to complete the cars coming down the Assembly Line. None of these scenarios were written into the Engineering dialog but were realities that occurred to facilitate real World production. It's doesn't follow the rule but they are documented exceptions. The "experts" don't like for the average guy to discover these facts because it doesn't favor their perceived reputation. If they discovered or researched these odd scenarios, they would be screaming them from the roof tops to bolster their status in the documentation World. The fact is, there are exceptions to the rule and deviations from Factory protocol that are being discovered everyday. History doesn't change, only our awareness of it.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: ] #2232388
01/11/17 06:13 PM
01/11/17 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Clueless
Originally Posted By NortheastMopar

Barry, do you mean it is impossible for a car with a March 1970 door tag to have an engine with an April 1970 casting daye?? Because the last sentence does not say that?? (PREDATE)??? The engine casting date has to predate the door sticker, correct???

Part of the problem here is that reality is sometimes ignored by the "experts" and their opinion becomes protocol for Industry possibilities. I've seen many times where an "expert" thinks that their years of research justifies them filling in the blanks and their limited knowledge about a topic becomes the new reality. I know of 2 documented St. Louis cars where their Engines were replaced AFTER the final Inspection had taken place. Apparently, the Worker who transported them to the holding area for shipping, got a little rambunctious and decided to have some fun along the way. They blew the Engine up and a replacement block was installed before the vehicle ever made it to the Dealership. I have also documented a vehicle where a quarter glass was dated 2 months after the VIN label date, the Fender Tag and other dated components on the vehicle. The Original Owner remembered that the quarter glass was broken at the Factory and it sat for 6 weeks while waiting for a replacement piece. Who knows why it took so long to get a replacement piece. One would think that they would have pirated one from the Assembly Line inventory but they obviously did not.

I also know of scenarios where cars were built, driven to an Inventory Lot, the carburetors were removed from those Inventoried vehicles, taken back into the Plant and used to complete the cars coming down the Assembly Line. None of these scenarios were written into the Engineering dialog but were realities that occurred to facilitate real World production. It's doesn't follow the rule but they are documented exceptions. The "experts" don't like for the average guy to discover these facts because it doesn't favor their perceived reputation. If they discovered or researched these odd scenarios, they would be screaming them from the roof tops to bolster their status in the documentation World. The fact is, there are exceptions to the rule and deviations from Factory protocol that are being discovered everyday. History doesn't change, only our awareness of it.


That how everbody learns...just to think it nobody took the time and tried to help with their opinions. As painful as it is to sometimes read through these topics a lot can be learned. How much further ahead would we be if nobody cared to share their knowledge and research?

I do agree with your last 2 sentences 100%.

I was curious about the two St Louis cars that you mentioned, how do you know that happened? Have you ever laid eyes on the cars to document them? For example were the VINs stamped on the blocks? It would be nice to hear more details.

Dave

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: 69_SIX_PACK] #2232432
01/11/17 07:49 PM
01/11/17 07:49 PM

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Originally Posted By 69_SIX_PACK

I was curious about the two St Louis cars that you mentioned, how do you know that happened? Have you ever laid eyes on the cars to document them? For example were the VINs stamped on the blocks? It would be nice to hear more details.

Dave


I didn't see the Cars personally. The incidents were relayed by one of the people actually involved. While having Lunch today I brought this topic up to a Gentleman who works for me. Tom B. is a retiree from Chrysler and so was his Father. Both held executive ranks within the Company. He said in 1966, a Chief for an Atlanta Fire station was chosen to head security at the Daytona 500 Race. Tom rode with the Fire Chief on the way to the Race in a new Dodge Truck that was to take part in the Parade festivities. While en-route to the Raceway, the Engine in the Truck developed a Rod knock. They called Tom's Father (who was head of the Zone) to find out what they could do to fix the problem. Tom's Dad contacted a local Dealership in the area and instructed them to pick a vehicle from their stock, pull the Engine and swap it with the Truck's damaged one. Tom and the Fire Chief stayed at a Motel overnight while the Dealership pulled a 318 Engine from a brand new Car and swapped it with the one in their Truck. The Truck didn't even have 300 miles on it at the time and now had a non-numbers matching Block sitting in its Engine Bay. The new Car at the Dealership had to have a replacement block installed in place of its original one.

Think of the controversy this would cause if someone were to find the evidence of what had taken place during that ordeal. Things like this were never written into Factory protocol but occurred quite often.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: ] #2232455
01/11/17 08:29 PM
01/11/17 08:29 PM
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I'm an engineer who has worked for a number of manufacturing companies over the years and I have to laugh sometimes when experts give their etched in stone versions of how something was done at a plant 40 or 50 years ago based on cars they've studied over the years.
I've requested parts for testing or study, then a year later been doing some housecleaning and find parts I didn't use. So I return them to the plant where they are put back in inventory and used on the line. I'm sure that happens all the time, so anyone saying parts should be datecoded within a month or two before a car was assembled are talking about how it typically was, but there were many exceptions.
I now work for a truck manufacturer, and sad to say, but many trucks roll off the line and have to go to Test and Tune or as we call it, "red tag", where they sit for weeks or sometimes months before they get repaired or sometimes a missing part is finally received and installed so the truck can be delivered to the customer.
Same happens with cars, probably since Henry Ford developed the assembly line.
But unless you can document it, there is no way to prove a part datecoded after a build date was original. You can argue to death that it "could have been" but there is no way to know for sure. I can go into one of the systems at work and check a truck by order number or VIN, and see if it was red tagged, and why. Records were surely kept back in the day, probably handwritten or printouts, but they are surely gone now. So again, no way to know decades later.
In the case of engines, I wonder what would have happened if an engine was bad on a newly assembled car and had to be replaced by the mechanics in a car plants "red tag" department. Would they have to stamp the VIN on the new engine they are installing, or would it have been blank?
I don't know the laws, but suspect the automakers are required to have the VIN on the engine of cars they build regardless of whether it was installed on the line or installed in the repair department before the car could be shipped.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2232473
01/11/17 08:53 PM
01/11/17 08:53 PM
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Clueless, in 1966 Dodge cars and trucks had no VIN stamped on the engine block. So nobody would be able to see a non-numbers matching block in these 2 vehicles, thus no controversy.

"History does not change, only your awareness of it."

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Little Detroit] #2232487
01/11/17 09:11 PM
01/11/17 09:11 PM
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Let me be the first one to welcome Clueless to Moparts! Glad you can join us on this topic. Really looking forward to hearing more how you found us and more about the documented cases. Sounds like some really good information.

You'll find most of us here want to learn as much as we can and anytime we can see documents on unusual cases we're all eyes and ears.


1970 Challenger T/A 4-Speed
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Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Cuda Cody] #2232510
01/11/17 09:54 PM
01/11/17 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted By Cuda Cody
Let me be the first one to welcome Clueless to Moparts! Glad you can join us on this topic. Really looking forward to hearing more how you found us and more about the documented cases. Sounds like some really good information.

You'll find most of us here want to learn as much as we can and anytime we can see documents on unusual cases we're all eyes and ears.



So far all I've read is anecdotal hearsay. What documentation?

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: NANKET] #2232531
01/11/17 10:36 PM
01/11/17 10:36 PM

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Originally Posted By NANKET
Clueless, in 1966 Dodge cars and trucks had no VIN stamped on the engine block. So nobody would be able to see a non-numbers matching block in these 2 vehicles, thus no controversy.

"History does not change, only your awareness of it."

You missed my point. Regardless of the physical Engine stamping, the dates were cast into the block. In the scenario I mentioned, the new Car that had its Engine pulled (donated to the Truck) may have had a replacement Engine that was cast dated after the build date of the vehicle. Those are the types of occurrences that were happening during that time period.

Re: T/A 'and AAR's [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2232533
01/11/17 10:41 PM
01/11/17 10:41 PM

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Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By Cuda Cody
Let me be the first one to welcome Clueless to Moparts! Glad you can join us on this topic. Really looking forward to hearing more how you found us and more about the documented cases. Sounds like some really good information.

You'll find most of us here want to learn as much as we can and anytime we can see documents on unusual cases we're all eyes and ears.



So far all I've read is anecdotal heresay. What documentation?


There's a lot of "anecdotal hearsay" that's considered documentation. Here's another example of some "anecdotal hearsay" that some of us are able to learn from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-WhtU3sVa0

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