Very cool

A long time ago I researched the cars in depth. As I understand the information: When the AAR's & T/A's were announced by Chrysler to the dealers the dealers were told you are getting X number of cars. The # of cars was supposed to be based on the volume of the dealer. They were also given the option to order as well and there are some ordered cars out there. The number of cars produced - 2500 per Dodge & Plymouth was established by SCCA homologation rules. I do not remember reading in the documents about colored roofs or vinyl tops or colors period. I will look again at the rules at some point, but not right now.

The AAR order form was stamped "AAR" in large letters.

As I mentioned, my thoughts are based on a few pieces of info I acquired regarding the black painted top on the 77 car. The info came from John Harkness who was actually there. My second thought was that it was clear that the 2500 cars that were sold to the public had to be available with all the options that the 77 car had available, which (now this is an assumption) includes the factory paint colors? My next assumption is that Chrysler had to add the V02 option to the T/A to cover the black painted roof on the 77 car. I guess I am looking for proof that the AAR cars also had two tone paint so I can put my assumptions to sleep. However, I have not as yet found a two tone AAR or an order sheet that says it could be ordered with the V02 option?? I guess if there is one sunroof T/A than there might be only 3 painted top T/A challengers? By why no AAR's? I really don't lose sleep over this, but it comes up every now and then and I try to get some answers every now and then hoping somebody might have found some new info on this subject. Barry, does your car have a sunroof?

The race cars did not have any options, no fender tags or broadcast sheets for bodies in white. They were delivered as a bare tub.

The AARs did have fewer optional available than the T/As.

Rallye wheels standard with no other wheel being optional.

Black vinyl top only, no white, green or Gator tops like Challengers.

Manual or fast ratio steering only, no regular PS like the Challenger.

T/As had more options available, it is just that simple.

The Dodge line has always been more upscale than the Plymouth line.

It has been mentioned above, 2 or 3 times;

The V02 option was not added to the T/As option list, it was available on all Challengers from the start of the 1970 model year on any 1970 Challengers that could be had with a painted roof.

(No V02 on Convertibles or SE models for the obvious reasons)

Photos of a tub that was not used in the thread at http://www.transamcuda.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1140052574

On the race car, it does have a black painted top, but the factory V02 cars also had molding at the rear to cover the mask line.

It was never a 'real' factory V02 car.

Makes Sense. Looking at the pre-order sheet fir the T/A are all the options that are blacked out not available on the T/A, correct?
So, yes, I see the V02 option as being available. I would love to see a pre-order sheet for the Plymouth line AAR. Maybe they did not make one?? At any rate, I guess at this point, I am of the understanding that my V02 along with the two others you know of are just as Gelen stated rare optioned cars? I have just always thought it to be odd why so many black vinyl top cars and so few of the painted top cars. Vinyl tops have always been a more formal option in my opinion, but who knows at this point. I guess you can also wonder who would order a sunroof in a car that looks like a racecar? I was also surprised to find that C15 deluxe seat belt package on my fender tag. Another rare one in a T/A? And I guess that the story John Harkness or autodynamics told me is probably true regarding Sam Posey telling them to send the car back and have the top painted black. Maybe I was just reading into these stories too much. I only wished my car came with a build sheet so I could have seen where it was sold through? Registry in Mass said it is too far back to find it even if it were born in a Massachusetts Dealer.

There is not any dealership information on broadcast sheets.

oh wow. another dead end. I guess the registry was the only place if the car was originally sold in Massachusetts. They only had the info on the person who sold it to me. And I knew him as a neighbor. He bought the car in Boston sitting in a garage with the original carbs and intake but a non matching motor, which I had all redone to better than the T/A specs. Dyno at 357 HP. Kept it kind of stock, but I knew as long as the motor was not n umbers matching it did not matter what I did with it. The owner told him the car was being raced up New England dragway. It had a big Box scoop somebody glassed into the original hood. What a mess. I was lucky enough to find a real nice original T/A hood. But he was told the original motor was long gone to the scrap heap.

I asked previously to Berry do you have any Documentation about whether or not T/A 's and AAR's might have or have not been held out of line for any reason that might warrant the reason for so many unstamped (vin) blocks? if you do would you mind sharing with the rest of us?

I am not aware of any reason that an engine would not have been stamped at the factory before going into a car.

If anyone has a non-stamped block it was likely used as a replacement after something when wrong with the original block.

the reason I ask after reading thru past posts by members, they claim that the unstamped blocks are warrantee blocks and it seams that you may concur that thought. I have found rather odd that if there were that many issues with the T/A blocks one would think that the famous "black cloud" would have cast its shadow over the reputation of the 340 T/A blocks and the cars them selves. Not to mention that the likes of Carcraft and Hot Rod Magazine would probably reported it, or some kind of TSB. That is why I asked if that there was a strike or mechanical issue during that time period.
After talking to several members we came up with several scenario's that would possibly explain occurrence.
1. strike
2. mechanical line failure
3. casting failure or warrantee issue
4. a push from Chrysler to meet the required number of cars
to meet SCCA requirements to participate in Racing
Program.
5. cars pulled off line due to lack of T/A Blocks available
to meet requirements.

Out of all the scenario's listed we think that 3,4,and 5 are the most probable. That being said this is just speculation and further research is needed.
So far no one has recovered any TSB's to support no. 3., and no record of a strike 1., no record of mechanical failure on line no. 2.

Since you have been known for having the largest data base on T/A and AAR's and have had some ties with the Chrysler Historical Society I would like to know if you have any documentation to either support or deny any of the scenario's . and finally would it be possible for you to make a spread sheet with all the vin's for T/A's and AAR's with SPD's, decal date, and fender tag date along with casting date and whether vin is on block? I do know its a lot to ask ,but from what I have read you have the largest data base and it speed things up for everybody if you were able to share the info. thank you

You have forgotten the real scenario, most of these cars were beat like rented mules and the engine simply gave up due to over revving and abuse. I know mine was street raced with a vengeance and it is by no means an except. There was nothing "wrong" with the engines that would call for mass failure, they were just driven hard. If you take in account they all came with 3.55 or 3.91 gears, had 26 or so tall tires and half of them being automatic 60 MPH is 3000+ RPMs, do you think many people drove these cars 60 MPH when taking any amount of trip? The other half was 4 speeds and of course I know no one ever drove those aggressively or ever missed a shift. I would say if you look at any segment of muscle cars there are no more original engine cars in any line or model than in the AAR/TA cars for the above reasons, most just don't seek out a special block cause they were just blocks were as the TA block was a specific block, add to that that the TA block had a very limited available so a lot of the ones out there were service blocks or Duster blocks.

I think you ran across a pure coincidence and you are trying to add a back story to substantiate it. The back story is these motors got popped in a high number and a high number of people went to the troubled of finding a service TA block to put back in them. End of story.

On Jeff's sit there is a list of AAR VIN and SPD but not engine numbers info.

On the ordering question, so what I understood was correct, the majority of these cars were "factory spec" built cars just sent to the dealers. The part about turn to earn has been part of the car business since I have been in it even to today so not surprising that they were allocated by sales volume back then as well.

thank you for your reply although the Questions were directed to Barry since he was the first to respond to my post and from what I have seen here everybody seems to believe that he's the "man".i am hoping he is willing to help.
As to your reply I do appreciate your opinion, however I wish you would have read my post a little closer.
as I pointed out that several members and myself were having a discussion and reading thru past posts and trying to figure out why three cars that I have located all three having almost identical issues around the same time period. by your account they all three were driven hard and put away wet,(old expression)or blown up. That would mean that all three cars that were built within days of each other all more than likely had mechanical failures around the same time period, and they all three end up with the same casting dated blocks with no vin or warrantee tag riveted on block. I think that is even a bigger coincidence that what I was asking about.
if you will go back and read again you will also see that I stated reasons that were most probable, see reason # 3. casting failure or warrantee issue.I think that would cover hard driving issues.
You stated that a large number of people sought out the T/A service blocks for replacements. Dealing with the public and growing up in that era I can tell that is not always true while there may have been a few people across the Nation that would have done that, I feel confident that most would have contacted the local salvage yard unless you have some documentation to back up that theory, and that's why I stated that my thoughts were just speculation and further investigation needed to be done. And that is also the reason I asked if it would be possible that Barry or anybody else had any documentation in support or denial of those scenario's.
I had also asked if Berry would make a spread sheet with data he has accumulated over the years as it speed up any investigation in this or other questions one might have about their car.Opinions are great and respected but sometimes differ with others, but "Documintation " is denfinite.

You're very diplomatic and I appreciate that in all seriousness. As I pointed out very early in this thread, my car would fall exactly into your scenario and time frame, the only difference with mine and the 3 you have found is we know the back story without question. Yes, opinion but based on known/accepted history, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. There are many numbers engine cars in that same time so strange that only these were built with no VIN blocks. As for all the blocks have the same casting dates, I think it was mentioned earlier (or maybe another thread) that engine were only cast certain days and a bulk supply was cast on that day and then used later. With a limited usage block such as a TA block there are only so many casting dates that are possible, not sure the exact number of different dates but I cant imagine over a few so odds are up for them having the same date. I have nothing to support this but I would bet as much as 50% of these cars experienced an engine failure of outside influence and although some were warrantied not all were and most of the warranty ones I have heard of didn't get the TA block anyway. The tracking down of the replacement TA block in my thought may have happened years later or in a customer pay scenario.

Anyway, I've said my peace and will leave it at that.

If you go back to the first page of this post, I answered your question.

This one stands out though;



Yes, impossible for a March built car to have an April casting from the factory. Second car, still impossible.

You can rephrase the question any way you like, but nothing will make the scenario you are evidently hoping for possible.

In addition to that.......

If you have not contacted me yet to see if I do know of the original engine for your car, you certainly can. Several people have been able to get their original blocks back to their cars just by asking to see if it has been reported in the last 20 or so years.

actually Berry you only answered part of the Question. once you made your answer I followed up with another post asking if you have any documentation to support that theory or is that or is that speculation from your past research? You see I value your opinion to a point , but to take it as fact without documentation would be something I would not bet on. Its fine with me that others look to you for answers. But, with out documentation the answer should start with "in my opinion". That is exactly why I asked if you had any documentation to support or deny the scenario's I asked about. So now I'll ask , do you have any documentation to support your statement? That is also why I asked if you would post the info that you have and vin's, tag info, decal pics and block pics if possible. If you don't have the time or if you simply don't want to I under stand ,but you could try share the info with rest of us. Speculation or Documentation which is it?

to correct you I didn't rephrase any questions it was always the same Questions with more details. but I must say you always answer the in same manner. but I have noticed that you avoid some questions or don't wish to answer. which ever it may be .When asked about a possible strike -no answer, about maybe cars pulled off line-no answer, and when gave your answer "impossible" I merely asked you if you had any documentation or was it speculation on your part thru your past research -no answer.
You have obtained a lot of information from members to build your data base, thought you like to help others figure out their info from what you have gathered.
some us have come up with Ligament questions and just asked if you have any documentation or if you could provide the info previously asked for to help themselves and others do their own research .
like I said earlier "opinons" are respected but sometimes they differ with others ,on the other hand "documentation" is "definite".

Lets try it this way with the dates of your own examples for the 'documentation'..........

FACTS;

1. The original Mylar door stickers had to show the actual build month & year per Federal Law. So the date shown indicates the FINAL assembly date when the fully completed car was physically ready to drive out of the plant.

2. As such, the Mylar door sticker was printed & applied right before each car left the plant.

So with those two facts in mind, if the Mylar door stickers on two of the three examples are actual originals showing March 1970, then it is impossible that they left the plant with engines cast in April.

So here is an elective homework assignment for you, note each of these things;

Date on the original Mylar.

Casting date on the engine.

Final assembly date on the engine.

If those three dates are original to any of the examples, neither of the last two dates will predate the date on the Mylar.

Hopefully that helps explain it?