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Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134338
08/16/16 01:56 PM
08/16/16 01:56 PM
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pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Online Work
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,195
PA.
People speak highly about the SCAT I beem rods but I usually go H beem with the BEST rod bolt they offer. I bought a 416 rotating assembly and the SCAT I beem rods look pretty nice.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: pittsburghracer] #2134339
08/16/16 01:58 PM
08/16/16 01:58 PM
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Posts: 20,195
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pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Online Work
"Little"John

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Posts: 20,195
PA.
I don't see them offered for the big block so you would have to call. Here's a set of small block SCAT rods.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-26123/overview/make/plymouth


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134351
08/16/16 02:17 PM
08/16/16 02:17 PM
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Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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North Alabama
Comments were not directed at guys that WANT to use older parts or build that style motor. They were directed at guys who HAVE opted to buy much better parts, yet are not getting the performance from them they should be.

If you HAVE a set of ported 906s or Stage5 heads lying around, by all means use them. But me, I sold all that old stuff off. So these days, spending the money to "trick out" a set of older cast iron heads makes no sense monetarily. Better alum heads can be bought for less money than you will tie up in those cast iron heads if starting from scratch.

So lets look at some other parts. So you have plenty of sets of LY rods lying around. At minimum, they will need to be resized and new bolts installed. Depending on what you get that done for, you are likely going to be money wise very close to a BETTER set of aftermarket rods. So which do you trust your new build to, recon 40 year old rods, or new ones for virtually same money. And if you are buying rods, a little longer costs no more. On pistons, I haven't bought a set of forged TRWs in 20 years, so I have no idea what they cost now, but man those things are heavy. Many companies have a much nicer shelf piston these days that won't break the bank.

On other stuff, a cam costs what it costs, lifters and other parts. So no need not to go modern unless you are raiding somebody's old parts pile for cheap. But myself I have seen those "old" parts need enough work, that you could have bought new. Example, a local guy had a nice .030 over block ready to go. Found the proverbial "smoking" deal on some .060 over used pistons. By the time he bored and honed block, bought an odd ball ring package for the "good deal" pistons, it cost him money over just buying .030 pistons and being done.

The bottom line is you need a "plan" and stick to it. Just buying parts willy nilly because they are a "deal" always ends up costing you in the end, because seldom do the "deal" parts work out like you need them to. Also remember that old heads, intakes, etc, may have been cut within an inch of their lives and chances of that stuff bolting together without more machining, spacers or whatever, is slim. Nothing wrong with a budget build, but with used parts, it NEVER works out as cheap as you have it figured in your head

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: Monte_Smith] #2134393
08/16/16 03:14 PM
08/16/16 03:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Oh
P
parksr5 Offline OP
super stock
parksr5  Offline OP
super stock
P

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Oh
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Comments were not directed at guys that WANT to use older parts or build that style motor. They were directed at guys who HAVE opted to buy much better parts, yet are not getting the performance from them they should be.

If you HAVE a set of ported 906s or Stage5 heads lying around, by all means use them. But me, I sold all that old stuff off. So these days, spending the money to "trick out" a set of older cast iron heads makes no sense monetarily. Better alum heads can be bought for less money than you will tie up in those cast iron heads if starting from scratch.

So lets look at some other parts. So you have plenty of sets of LY rods lying around. At minimum, they will need to be resized and new bolts installed. Depending on what you get that done for, you are likely going to be money wise very close to a BETTER set of aftermarket rods. So which do you trust your new build to, recon 40 year old rods, or new ones for virtually same money. And if you are buying rods, a little longer costs no more. On pistons, I haven't bought a set of forged TRWs in 20 years, so I have no idea what they cost now, but man those things are heavy. Many companies have a much nicer shelf piston these days that won't break the bank.

On other stuff, a cam costs what it costs, lifters and other parts. So no need not to go modern unless you are raiding somebody's old parts pile for cheap. But myself I have seen those "old" parts need enough work, that you could have bought new. Example, a local guy had a nice .030 over block ready to go. Found the proverbial "smoking" deal on some .060 over used pistons. By the time he bored and honed block, bought an odd ball ring package for the "good deal" pistons, it cost him money over just buying .030 pistons and being done.

The bottom line is you need a "plan" and stick to it. Just buying parts willy nilly because they are a "deal" always ends up costing you in the end, because seldom do the "deal" parts work out like you need them to. Also remember that old heads, intakes, etc, may have been cut within an inch of their lives and chances of that stuff bolting together without more machining, spacers or whatever, is slim. Nothing wrong with a budget build, but with used parts, it NEVER works out as cheap as you have it figured in your head


Understood. I've seen exactly what your saying happen to many and even had it happen to me when I built the motor in my Road Runner. Got a cheaper set of reconditioned, big valve, pocket ported heads from a reputable Mopar shop only to find out they weren't right. I had a few hundred more dollars in them over the original cost to make them work and they're still not 100% right. I would have been money and power ahead if I'd just bought a new, better set of aluminum heads.

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134418
08/16/16 03:38 PM
08/16/16 03:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,195
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"Little"John
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"Little"John

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PA.
Bingo. Stop throwing money into a bottomless pit. Upgrade and enjoy the ride. I constantly look for deals and have money set aside ready to jump. I just bought one like new Edelbrock big block head for 450 dollars. I will soon advertise for a match to it and if the price is right grab it. Until then I will be porting this one getting it to where I am happy with it.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134546
08/16/16 06:59 PM
08/16/16 06:59 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
Iowan Offline
super stock
Iowan  Offline
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Lost in Time
Obsolete does not equal cheap, you could drop a grand on a set of bare heads fast. Spend 500 on a set of rods and be done also forget TRWs get good (light) pistons with the cr you need for the heads.


Have a great day
Iowan

"obsolete is neat"

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134595
08/16/16 07:56 PM
08/16/16 07:56 PM
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Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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What all this boils down to, unless you actually HAVE a bunch of these old parts that you can screw together, the chance of that actually being the cheaper route vs new and better, is slim to none.

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: Iowan] #2134603
08/16/16 08:04 PM
08/16/16 08:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Every time I TRY to go cheap it bites me in
the A$$.. on my Rampage I used parts I had in
the shop... just touching up the port work I
went through the intake runner on my W2s... I
didnt see it... so they sucked oil in... changed
over to my W-5s.. same thing had to tube both sets
to get a running set of heads... after they were
on the car... years ago when the Eagle H-beams came
out the quality was good.. I bought 1 set then bought
2 more sets so they have worked fine in all my SBs
wave

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134655
08/16/16 08:55 PM
08/16/16 08:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
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Az
Originally Posted By parksr5
In some recent posts, a lot of our long time racers have been reminiscing about their 70's, 80's, ext combinations. I really find the old combos interesting and impressive and it always makes me think, what if some of you guys who are still doing this today could essentially recreate your motors from years past with a few new parts; what would the combination be?

For example, still use ported 906 heads or 440 Source heads at the max. TRW pistons or a modern day equivalent, still use a flat tappet cam, maybe the lowest cost cast steel or equivalent rod (scat or something along those lines or would you still trust 40+ year old re-conned rods?), any intake available today and any carb available today. If you guys could wring high nines out of these things in the 70’s or 80's, what could you do today with a similar combo but, with new cam, intake and carb tech and the additional knowledge of 30+ years?

Nothing 30 - 40 years ago is relevant in todays racing scene - including parts ( quality and availability ), technology, and most of all $. Those that are going fast today ( a relative term ) are certainly not using anything from that era although the cars my look that way from the outside. Unlike years ago, you better go in with a realistic financial plan - whether it is building for a particular class or ET. If you want to build to be competitive for a particular class, you better be prepared to spend lots of $. Those with lots of $ and technology have driven it that way. Still want to use those 906 heads, build for a ET range and run the brackets. again, you need a plan going in and you need to stick to it. There will always be someone in the other lane that will be faster than you with those new mega $ heads. You don't have to have the latest and most expensive stuff to have fun in this hobby - and it is a hobby for most of us.


Fastest 300
Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2134714
08/16/16 10:07 PM
08/16/16 10:07 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
Iowan Offline
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Iowan  Offline
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Lost in Time
Don't get me wrong, I have two RBs one built in 89 and one in 91. The first is a 452 with TRWs, polished stock rods, block line bored, crank cut 10 10, decked more than I will say, the heads are 452s that have been cut to 79 cc, 9.5cr, 2.14 1.81s and cut to DC templates. I assembled it the last time with a NOS DC cam I had on the shelf, I think it was the 5.57 lift mechanical cam. An old M1 intake and a 850 it still makes 525hp and 545tq. after 400 runs and 2000 street miles. It's he smallest cam it's ever had and rum at 7K all its life until now.

The second is a 500" that I put together after waiting a year for a DC 4.15 crank, same thing with the rods, heads 915s cr 12.5, cam [url=CChttp://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=736&sb=2][url=CChttp://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=736&sb=2][url=CChttp://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=736&sb=2]CChttp://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=736&sb=2[/url][/url][/url] It pulls like a mother from 4000 past 6500 with a peak of 650hp at 6300 which is just what I wanted because I had been turning it 7000 + with the the CC 650 cam. I am now running on E-85 and a Holley 950. The 500" has 600 gram pistons and now has Scat H beams with the lower rpms, 2.18s and 1.81s.

Both motors were built by a great Mopar racer friend of mine, we bartered work and parts back and forth until we quit keeping track over the 30 + years we were fiends until he past away. I guess I just like running his stuff over anything new, must be a sentimentalist, I sure miss Never Reedy and his 64 300 K.


Have a great day
Iowan

"obsolete is neat"

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: Iowan] #2134984
08/17/16 10:06 AM
08/17/16 10:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,555
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
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one thing i was not clear on, or didn't quite qualify with an articulate example, was a parts break down. this is where the "gained knowledge" comes into play. first off, rods are a prime example. obviously, the knowledge is here today that rehabbing a set of factory rods is foolish. same as a set of cylinder heads. monte mentioned cams, lifters, and rockers are what they are and today's offerings are the way to go. what i had in mind was stepping into what another was upgrading, be it a different set of heads, [example would be to B1's from a set of stealths] aluminum rods from newer h-beams, or a different intake system. i am sure by now with my extensive machinist back ground i would be able to measure and know what to look for as far as defects are concerned, plus know what other inspections would be needed as well as investigate the part involved to get a glimpse of the opinion[s] of the reliability and quality of the item in question by those that have used such parts themselves. home work will be the key, as well as meticulous inspection and assembly techniques. possibly the best plan of attack is the "plan" itself. as was mentioned, it's all in the combination. you don't buy an .800 lift cam and use heavy duty MP stamped steel lifters on stealth heads with an 8.5cr short block capped with 2 1/4" headers just because you got a screamin' deal on the part's cost[s]. a guy like me just has to be patient and wait for the right thing to come along for the intended purpose. possibly a complete [but very reasonable] short block will be my way to go, with a set of newer heads that need a slight freshening. who knows what will come along when i an ready for that part of the project. but knowledge and scrupulous inspection will definitely be in the mix. to be continued........
beer

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: moparx] #2135007
08/17/16 11:12 AM
08/17/16 11:12 AM
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pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Online Work
"Little"John

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We the Friend that was going to do the old school build made a good move already. Instead of stock heads I offered him a set of Stealth heads that I bought many years ago and massaged slightly from the stock 267cfm head flow up to 300. I was never going to use them so he bought them from me for 800 dollars. He also bought an old school 590 lift cam from a Moparts member. I would love to see him step up to a better, safer rod but time will tell


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2135029
08/17/16 11:55 AM
08/17/16 11:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
Engine:
block 1968 Dart GTS 383, a gift with 50 miles on it from new
heads 1967 915 casting, milled .030"
manifold factory 2 X 4 iron
carbs 2 X 383 AVS
cam Crane H302
cheap long tube headers
Transmission:
stock 727 with factory manual shift valve body
12" converter
Axle:
4.89
Chassis:
1963 Belvedere ex-SS (no hood braces) roller bought for $42.50 in 1970

Lots of fun, lost the engine to unknown oil pressure problem.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2135281
08/17/16 06:36 PM
08/17/16 06:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581 Offline
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Chris2581  Offline
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Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
I built a "old school" engine. 440 with those heavy TRW 6 pak slugs,NEW LY rods,and ancient TM-7 750 Holley. Cam is Comp XS282 solid. Crane iron rockers, Only modern stuff is Stealth heads and Rollmaster chain set,TTi headers. I used what was on the shelf and has been there many years. I'm mainly building the car to go back on the street,but it should run 11.30's easily in my 71 Demon on pump gas.


Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: Chris2581] #2135656
08/18/16 04:51 AM
08/18/16 04:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,559
Oh
H
His and Her 69's Offline
pro stock
His and Her 69's  Offline
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H

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Posts: 1,559
Oh
I am not a wealthy guy so when I needed to put an engine together for the woman's car so she could race I just used what I had. The good motor dropped a valve so the heads needed work, block was junk along with other stuff. Calias steel Crank is still Good.
I went into the old stock parts and with the help of my engine builder assembled an old school engine for her. 440 motor, cast crank, used trw slugs on stock rods, gasket matched 906 heads and a torquer intake. I did get a new clay smith solid cam for it.
The car runs on pump gas, cruises great, makes 500 hp and 500 trq and runs 11.80's in a 3700 lb car. We will keep the rpm's down and hope it last a couple years. I have some parts but
I want to get more parts to build her a better engine but it will take a little time as I am also doing a full resto on my RR.

Re: Since Everyone Is Reminiscing About Their Old Cars/Combos [Re: parksr5] #2135690
08/18/16 09:55 AM
08/18/16 09:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 280
GEORGIA
barracuda7199 Offline
enthusiast
barracuda7199  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 280
GEORGIA
The 440 that was in my cuda was an old combo. Keith black Pistons stock rods. Home ported 346 heads with 2.14, 1.81 valves. Purple .557 solid cam, M1 single plane 850 double pumper. Cheetah reverse valve body, 3500 stall with 3:91 gears on M/T drag radials driving it an hour and a half to the track ran 7.60 at 90 mph in the 1/8th. This was a couple years ago. I thought the car ran good for what it was. Now it's in a thousand pieces and no $$$ to get the sheet metal hung back on it. Wish I would have just stopped at the new floors and firewall and put it back together.

image.jpeg
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