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Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Jon @ Hotchkis] #2077060
05/20/16 11:55 AM
05/20/16 11:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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BergmanAutoCraft Offline
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Long Island, NY USA
Originally Posted By Jon @ Hotchkis
In a perfect world you want 1-2* more +caster than the spindle's KPI. This will give the inside tire positive camber when steered, but as a consequence with the scrub radii these cars typically have you do get weight jacking. It is all about finding a happy medium and somewhere around +7-9* caster on these cars is about perfect.

OP- I agree that we need to see some pictures of your current setup as something sounds fishy.

An at-home alignment is easy enough if you can find some flat level ground. A $100 gauge , some straight edges, a couple tape measures, and some sand and you're good to go.


I've read the same thing regarding caster numbers. I'm assuming the jacking from the increased caster is counteracted by increasing the roll couple?

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #2077141
05/20/16 03:18 PM
05/20/16 03:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 43
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Jon @ Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Originally Posted By BergmanAutoCraft
I've read the same thing regarding caster numbers. I'm assuming the jacking from the increased caster is counteracted by increasing the roll couple?


For everyone: Roll couple percentage is a simplified method of describing lateral load transfer distribution front to rear, and subsequently handling balance. Basically roll stiffness ratio front to back.

Increasing the front roll couple will not affect the lean caused by weight jacking (since the tires are jacking the entire front suspension). But you may need to increase the roll couple due to the (likely) increased front-end grip.

On a side note, you typically want a couple percentage more front roll couple than the cars weight distribution. So if you car has a 55% front weight bias you will want a 57-58% front roll couple. If doing more tight autocross stay on the lower side 56-57% and if running larger track days stay on the higher side 57-58%.


Hotchkis Performance
8633 Sorensen Ave.
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Phone: 562-907-7757 x224
Fax: 562-907-7765

Hotchkis Performance East
9075 Highway 152
Mooresville, NC 28115
704-660-3060
Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Jon @ Hotchkis] #2081080
05/27/16 01:53 AM
05/27/16 01:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 949
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Dartslantsix Offline OP
super stock
Dartslantsix  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 949
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Original poster here. Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread.

I realize something is wrong with the car and I'm disappointed in the numbers that they were able to align the car to. But, for now I can drive my car and start enjoying it.

As I stated before, I double checked the offset bushings and they are correct. The cams are completely maxed out. There is no more adjustment in this car.

I was trying to think about what could have caused this. Two things come to mind- I reinforced the LCA pivot with a washer and this could have pushed the LCA back. Another thing could be the new strut bushings being too thick.

For now, I'm just going to enjoy the car and when the money comes, I'll get aftermarket UCAs to correct the situation.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2081486
05/27/16 08:41 PM
05/27/16 08:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Granite Bay CA
I understand your point about the lower control arm pivot point. I started a thread about welded K members here a couple of years back. A guy complained that welding a washer around that hole would mess with the caster readings. My response was that as long as the washer was thinner than that raised lip around the pivot hole, there should be zero difference. If someone used a washer thicker than say, 1/8", that guy would have a valid point. I doubt that it has as much effect as the strut rod bushings. Mopar Action magazine did do a small tech response in their Q & A forum. Early A body strut bushings and rods were slightly different than the 73-76 models. Some aftermarket bushing suppliers defaulted to the 73-76 style to save costs. The later cars used thicker strut rod bushings andusing these on a 60-72 model will certainly result in less caster. Using cut down urethane bushings is a cheap and easy way to gain caster.

Last edited by Frankenduster; 05/27/16 08:42 PM.
Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2109375
07/13/16 02:33 PM
07/13/16 02:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
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OLD318 Offline
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One little note on offset bushings...

Did your mechanic mention he could get more caster on one side only
but not the other? So he adjusted to the lowest side?

For example did he get 2.5 on the right (pass)
but only 1.7 on the left (driver) and adjusted to 1.7 1.6 ?

In this scenario, the front box of your frame is pointed slightly to the right... so you can't dial in much of any caster on the driver side if the box (frame) is diamond to the right...

vice versa if the front box is pointed (slightly) to the left...
you can dial in a lot on the driver side but not on the pass side...

Chrysler frames are notorious for not being perfectly square from
the factory. Let alone if they are 45 years old and have been driven, bumped, hit etc...

Further, the spec on the old frames is a quarter of an inch..
(Which is a country mile by today's standards)

This is one of those instances where a non square front frame will show itself.... Don't worry, you can still align the car but you'll never get max caster with stock arms and offset bushings.. you'll have to go to the
aftermarket arms...

Even with aftermarket arms, usually one side will give you noticeably higher positive caster ratings than the other...this is a sign that
the frame is pointed ever so slightly to the highest side...

There is a lot of play built into the new arms you should be able to get
what you want...

Best of luck to you....

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2110305
07/15/16 01:00 AM
07/15/16 01:00 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
super stock
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
My current alignment specs are below with offset bushings.

73 A body. Offset bushings. Welded K member (including welded around pivot- doesn't touch the weld). Delrin LCA'a and adjustable strut rods (set to ensure LCA pivot rotates freely with delrin bushings). Fairly low ride height.

This setting provides the least outer edge wear on super sports of what I've tried so far. I'd like to try less caster and similar camber one day. I'd need LBJ caster spacer washers to do so.



-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2110871
07/15/16 10:57 PM
07/15/16 10:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,129
New Mexico
UCUDANT Offline
Troll Hunter
UCUDANT  Offline
Troll Hunter

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Posts: 8,129
New Mexico
I need to assemble a front end and I have 4 offset Moog upper control arm bushings.

Would you all recommend using all 4? The front bushings should be installed with the offset hole to the inside farthest away from the ball joint and the rear bushing is installed with the hole offset to the outside/closet to the ball joint on each arm?

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2110987
07/16/16 05:31 AM
07/16/16 05:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline
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BigBlockMopar  Offline
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Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
You need all 4.

The orientation you describe is correct.
The front part of the A-arm will be spaced 'outwards', the rear part of the arm inwards. As a result the balljoint will be positioned more to the rear of the car, giving more caster.

I managed to get between 3 and 4 degrees caster on my '73 Dart.
I think I might be able to get more caster if I modify the inner strutrod bushing and pull the LCA forward a bit.

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