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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: Cab_Burge] #2095725
06/21/16 03:22 PM
06/21/16 03:22 PM
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Charleston
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Shock is compressed. Coil is not. I just ordered #250s.


This is a coil over shock correct... how do you
get the shock compressed and not the coil.. unless
the spring is way too short.. if thats the case like
I said a 6" at 250
wave


When you compress the coil on a coilover shock then the shock extends and vice versa
confused When I let my car down on the suspension the coil overs and spring compress, not extend shruggy They extend when I jack the car up and let the suspension hang down on of the coil overs, front or rear work


not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: madscientist] #2095726
06/21/16 03:23 PM
06/21/16 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Monte, thats exactly what Im thinking . I really dont know how to compare a /6 torsion bar to a coil spring
A torsion bar is a spring, so it has a spring rate............where to find that rate, I don't know. It also depends on how you mounted the shock. The more straight up, the less spring it needs




Seems to me that you can find the torsion bar rates in an old circle track chassis book. I have an old drag chassis book and I will look and see if it's in there.

I know I have seen the rates published.


I would be interested to know if you can find that


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095729
06/21/16 03:27 PM
06/21/16 03:27 PM
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Charleston
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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095738
06/21/16 03:45 PM
06/21/16 03:45 PM
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Here is what I found. You do need to read the AR tech page because the numbers do not translate exactly. But from the looks of it, even a 250# spring may be a bit much for you.

.810 90/lbs-inch P5249148 Drag race
.830 100/lbs-inch OE /6
.870 120 P5249149 Resto 340
.890 130 P5249150 Resto 383
.920 150 P5249151 HD V8 handling solo
.990 200 P5249152 Solo and RR
1.040 250 P5249153 HD solo and RR
1.090 300 P5249154 CT 1/4 and 1/2
1.140 350 P5249155 CT 1/4 and 1/2

As long as you understand the wheel rate thing Andy has posted you can figure out what you had, and what you need to get close.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095744
06/21/16 03:54 PM
06/21/16 03:54 PM
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Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.

Last edited by j.mcconnell; 06/21/16 03:54 PM.
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095751
06/21/16 04:14 PM
06/21/16 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By sixpackgut


I read the text and a chart was mentioned but I never did find a chart.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: j.mcconnell] #2095778
06/21/16 05:12 PM
06/21/16 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.



Yes. Well 250s are on there way. It doesnt appear you can use a torsion bar spring rate as a comparable to a coil


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095797
06/21/16 05:33 PM
06/21/16 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.



Yes. Well 250s are on there way. It doesnt appear you can use a torsion bar spring rate as a comparable to a coil


You can. I'm pretty sure that Andy at AF engineering can figure it out. I'd bet those 250's are gonna be on the heavy side.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095798
06/21/16 05:33 PM
06/21/16 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.



Yes. Well 250s are on there way. It doesnt appear you can use a torsion bar spring rate as a comparable to a coil
Nope, because while all springs are rated in inches............where they are mounted makes a huge difference. Same as the rear. If the rears are straight up, 110s may be all you need. The shocks are seriously angled, you may need 150s. On the fronts, how close to spindle and angle make a difference. All about leverage

Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: madscientist] #2095801
06/21/16 05:41 PM
06/21/16 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.



Yes. Well 250s are on there way. It doesnt appear you can use a torsion bar spring rate as a comparable to a coil


You can. I'm pretty sure that Andy at AF engineering can figure it out. I'd bet those 250's are gonna be on the heavy side.


It would appear that i am collecting coil springs. This will be the 3rd different spring on the front in 7 months


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095805
06/21/16 05:46 PM
06/21/16 05:46 PM
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When you compress the coil on a coilover shock then the shock extends and vice versa [/quote] confused When I let my car down on the suspension the coil overs and spring compress, not extend shruggy They extend when I jack the car up and let the suspension hang down on of the coil overs, front or rear work [/quote]

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it? [/quote]I do now up


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: Monte_Smith] #2095806
06/21/16 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By j.mcconnell
Quote:

not what I'm saying. With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


Turned the "spring nuts" closer to the shock mounting eye? It sounds like you took all of the preload out of it to lower the ride height. The correct springs should have some preload at the desired ride height. Sound like you need a lighter spring. Also, if the shock is near full compression at the desired ride height, it sounds like they may be a little long, especially since you drive on public roads.



Yes. Well 250s are on there way. It doesnt appear you can use a torsion bar spring rate as a comparable to a coil
Nope, because while all springs are rated in inches............where they are mounted makes a huge difference. Same as the rear. If the rears are straight up, 110s may be all you need. The shocks are seriously angled, you may need 150s. On the fronts, how close to spindle and angle make a difference. All about leverage



Monte, can't you calculate the numbers if you know the wheel rates for both the Tbars and coil overs?


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095894
06/21/16 09:11 PM
06/21/16 09:11 PM
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Not to totally bury you with information, but to minimize your spring collection read through this thread: Pirate4x4.com Spring Tech

There is a mountain of info in there that is offraod based, but I'm sure some of the theories and math applies to coil-overs independent of the application.

You should be able to use the current springs or the 250's and back calculate your corner weights. I've read that whole thread and the general idea is to use the lightest spring possible to support the rig with a certain amount of preload and let the shocks control stuff. I see no reason why that isnt a pretty good idea on the track as well. Offroad uses much longer travel shock, but something like 3/4-1in of preload should be a solid starting point on a 5in travel shock.

Edit: Also, working from the springs you have now should give a better idea of what rate you need than all this torsion bar / wheel rate stuff.
Disclaimer: My car has torsion bars and has made 14 passes in 4 years

Last edited by j.mcconnell; 06/21/16 09:14 PM.
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2095991
06/21/16 11:58 PM
06/21/16 11:58 PM
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Torsion bars and coil overs can be compared by using the wheel rate. Just takes a little bit of math. The coil spring is going to act about half way out on the lower control arm while the torsion bar works on the end of the lower control arm. Once you adjust for that difference you can compare them directly.

The slant six bar has a wheel rate of roughly 100 lbs/inch. If a coil spring is acting half way out on the lower control arm then you would want a 200 lb-inch coil spring to match the wheel rate of a slant six bar. I know it is roughly 1/2 way out but a person should really measure where the coil spring is acting in order to figure out the wheel rate.

Last edited by AndyF; 06/22/16 12:03 AM.
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2096010
06/22/16 12:33 AM
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Ok, well all this makes me feel better. I have not heard of a car as heavy as mine using anything below 300. So if the 250 still seem like there to much, ill go even lower. Thanks guys


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2096046
06/22/16 02:35 AM
06/22/16 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
[quote=MR_P_BODY][quote=sixpackgut]Shock is compressed. Coil is not. I just ordered #250s.


This is a coil over shock correct... how do you
get the shock compressed and not the coil.. unless
the spring is way too short.. if thats the case like
I said a 6" at 250
wave

With the car on its weight, the front shock is nearly fully compressed now that I lowered it a little but the spring isnt compressed now because I turned those spring nuts down. get it?


I think your springs are too short.
You shouldn't use the spring platform nuts to adjust ride height. You will end up with no preload (what you have now)
Or too much preload. Witch can do strange things when you hit the brakes on the top end.
Don

Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2096143
06/22/16 10:14 AM
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Good thread ray, I ditched the /6 bars also and went coil overs, wasn't sure on Spring got a 300 I'm thinking it was 12" afco doubles I am gonna try. I'll prolly need your help on this eventually

Mr p body happy birthday


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Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: sixpackgut] #2096156
06/22/16 10:26 AM
06/22/16 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Ok, well all this makes me feel better. I have not heard of a car as heavy as mine using anything below 300. So if the 250 still seem like there to much, ill go even lower. Thanks guys


What length springs are you buys
EDIT
With the bottom adjuster set at 1" up from the bottom
your shaft should be where you want it... if its just
a little off move it with the adjuster... more than 1"
the spring is wrong
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 06/22/16 10:30 AM.
Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2096190
06/22/16 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Ok, well all this makes me feel better. I have not heard of a car as heavy as mine using anything below 300. So if the 250 still seem like there to much, ill go even lower. Thanks guys


What length springs are you buys
EDIT
With the bottom adjuster set at 1" up from the bottom
your shaft should be where you want it... if its just
a little off move it with the adjuster... more than 1"
the spring is wrong
wave
Not necessarily MrP. I understand what you are trying to say, that in MOST instances you want the spring platform to be in a certain range and if it is not there at ride height, you have wrong spring..............BUT, many times I tune "reaction" with a spring. I have purposely done what Ray has, with too heavy a front spring because I DON'T want any stored energy in the spring. And vice versa. I have purposely run a way light spring and cranked the platforms way up to get the reaction I want. So there are several ways to do it based on what you are trying to do. I have also run heavier springs than needed on the rear for various reasons. As with anything else, it's a tuning aid

Re: Front coil over guys. Need some advise [Re: Cab_Burge] #2096193
06/22/16 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Shock is compressed. Coil is not. I just ordered #250s.


This is a coil over shock correct... how do you
get the shock compressed and not the coil.. unless
the spring is way too short.. if thats the case like
I said a 6" at 250
wave


When you compress the coil on a coilover shock then the shock extends and vice versa
confused When I let my car down on the suspension the coil overs and spring compress, not extend shruggy They extend when I jack the car up and let the suspension hang down on of the coil overs, front or rear work


When I jack up my car the front suspension is limited in extension by a travel stop built into the UCA, that is nothing but a bolt that has washers to determine how long it is. The front shock body is not used as a stop on either end of travel. And OBTW, I think my 8" long springs on the Viking shocks are 450# to hold up the Mega block engine in it now.

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