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71 B body charging system woes #2070243
05/09/16 06:46 PM
05/09/16 06:46 PM
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Minnesota
peabodyracing Offline OP
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I'm feeling very stupid today. Have been working on a 71 RR for the past several hours. The voltage won't regulate properly. Voltage output runs as high as 18V at road speed.

I've traced wires, double checked/cleaned connections, verified good grounds (even ran a separate ground for the regulator), tried a known good regulator, replaced the regulator plug to ensure the pins were making full contact (did verify the pin position/depth matches the plug), checked alternator brushes; no change at all.

My understanding of this vintage system is the regulator grounds the green wire as required to control voltage. The blue wire is hot from the ignition at all times when the ignition is on.

Any other thoughts please? Thanks in advance.


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2070306
05/09/16 09:08 PM
05/09/16 09:08 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:
Any other thoughts please?
You are just dealing with a difficult case (they do come our way on occaision) luckily not too often. this started out of the clear blue with no parts/adjustment changes? (1) grab another alt out of your stash & sub it in for a quick test (2) check/confirm this high reading with your VOM (3) check voltage at the sense (blue) wire at the reg and at the alt. If the alt ain't full fielding itself in the internal field circuit/brush/brush holder assys and we know/assume the subbed in reg is good and the volt gauge is accurate (if it is at 18 you'd see it in the lights) then there has to be a dead short in the green wiring circuit which I doubt especially since you double checked the wiring/connectors but possible but a last resort on that would be to pull all related (field circuit wiring/plugs) & with jumpers feed the top little nub terminal on the reg and one of the alt field terminals with 12V (the blue ign1 run circuit) then a seperate jumper from the other alt field terminal to the side little nub terminal in the reg triangle connector (the green wire circuit). Holler back. EDIT short version, the alt, (IF) the reg is good

Last edited by RapidRobert; 05/09/16 09:18 PM.

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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2070492
05/10/16 01:01 AM
05/10/16 01:01 AM
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Follow what RapidRobert said to do. I might add to unhook the regulator connector and then unhook the green wire at the alt and then ckeck it for a ground as you can use an ohm meter to see if its grounded. You are right as with the two terminal electronic voltage reg the blue wire to it is the 12 volt sense wire so it knows the battery volts and when to back down the charging some. The green wire is the ground for the rotor (field circuit) and if it would get grounded the car will keep charging like yours is. My buddies car had the rotor ground internally in the alt and I had to replace his alt to fix his and this is funny as his car was a 71 Roadrunner also with a 440 six pack. Good luck and as RR says holler back if you dont find the problem. Ron

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2070603
05/10/16 08:42 AM
05/10/16 08:42 AM
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Luigi Offline
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Hi,

My first post here. Been reading alot around here and like the solutions, tips & tricks...
I have the same problem as above with my Chrysler Newport 1971, charging up to sometimes 17 á 18 volts !! Strange thing is : not always...sometimes it's charging the right 14.5 volts.
Checked everything like Peabodyracing did but it's still a mistery for me too. Read a tread on FCBO about the same problem. In that case the problem was in the ignitionswitch ?? I haven't checked that though..

Luigi

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2070647
05/10/16 10:30 AM
05/10/16 10:30 AM
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almost all the charging issues I have seen were sensing wire related if the grounds were good.

That voltage passes through the bulkhead 2 times before it gets to the vr for sensing.

Verify how much drop you are getting and what I do is run a relay to power it instead.

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2070726
05/10/16 12:36 PM
05/10/16 12:36 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:
My first post here. Been reading alot around here and like the solutions, tips & tricks...
I have the same problem as above with my Chrysler Newport 1971, charging up to sometimes 17 á 18 volts !! Strange thing is : not always...sometimes it's charging the right 14.5 volts.
Luigi welcome aboard! & you have just made contact with the best/sharpest/craziest bunch of Mopar addicts in the world. You have the electronic reg & they either go open or full field & when they do they stay that way so I would opinionate that you have a part time open (not in the reg) that is dropping the voltage cuz it ain't charging then & then when it makes contact it bumps it up high to restore the level which means if that is the case it would be dropping to 12 ish when it is in open mode HOWEVER 17/18 is real high and you might be dealing with a PT dead short in the green wire circuit including brushes/brush holders/alt internal field circuit (got another alt you can sub in for a quick test?). this must be fixed ASAP as 17/18 volts will fry electrical devices onboard in short order (bulbs will go first).


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: RapidRobert] #2070888
05/10/16 05:28 PM
05/10/16 05:28 PM
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peabodyracing Offline OP
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You guys are the best! Off to the garage this evening to see what I can find. Thanks much. I'll let you know what I find. Really appreciate the expertise.

UPDATE: Got it! Followed through the suggested steps. The alternator must have been grounding internally. Another one in place and 14.5V just like I wanted.

Thanks again for the help!

Luigi, let me add to the welcome Robert extended you earlier. You'll find this forum very helpful and even entertaining. Best wishes!


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2070963
05/10/16 07:31 PM
05/10/16 07:31 PM
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Aurora, Colorado
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If you disconnect the plug from the regulator and it still overcharges, then there is a short to ground on the regulator side of the alternator field. If you disconnect the green wire at the alternator and it still overcharges, then the brush holder in the alternator might be shorting out.
I have seen these melt and short out before. If you can get the parts it's an easy fix to replace the brush holder.

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2071074
05/10/16 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted By peabodyracing
UPDATE: Got it! Followed through the suggested steps. The alternator must have been grounding internally. Another one in place and 14.5V just like I wanted.
on the bad alt you might ohm the field terminals (& ohm em to the case) and eyeball the brushes/holders and or remove them & see if you spot an improper ground that you can easily rectify (& have a good alt for a spare)


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: RapidRobert] #2071307
05/11/16 09:03 AM
05/11/16 09:03 AM
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peabodyracing Offline OP
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Thanks Robert. Was already looking up parts for it as I'd like to go through it.

Sure appreciate the help!


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: RapidRobert] #2071702
05/11/16 09:48 PM
05/11/16 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
My first post here. Been reading alot around here and like the solutions, tips & tricks...

Luigi welcome aboard! & you have just made contact with the best/sharpest/craziest bunch of Mopar addicts in the world.
Luigi We just had a guy put his torsion bar boots in the microwave. I warned you these people were different!


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2072189
05/12/16 07:05 PM
05/12/16 07:05 PM
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Printed all the suggestions and the tips made above out and took it to my garage to figure out the problem....but now the car won't start !! F#*k !!
Had this starting problem earlier: one click and that was it. I knew the battery was good so cleaned the battery cables and the car started right away so I thought: problem solved !!
But now the starter keeps clicking like a machine gun....so have to solve thát problem first..pfff, I lóve those big Americans..

Edit: starter also clicks continiously when starter relais is jumpwired with a screwdriver...

???

Last edited by Luigi; 05/12/16 07:10 PM.
Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2072404
05/13/16 01:24 AM
05/13/16 01:24 AM
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We'll assume the batt is good and the starter is good, clicking is classic poor/corroded connection in the large cable circuit (starter/solenoid ain't getting enough voltage) and that includes the ground return path. I would clean the terminal end of all large cables: posts (you did em). cable to block. cable to starter relay. starter relay to starter large terminal. eng to firewall is a good idea also. Still no go? set the battery on the ground by the left front wheel. clamp the red clamp of your jumper cables to the large/small starter terminals (one half of the clamp on the large one and the other half of the clamp on the small one so they are connected) and position em securely as the starter case is very close (a thick rag is good insurance). clamp the other end of that red cable to the batt positive post. clamp one end of the black jumper cable to the starter case (ground). then car in park/ebrake set make the final connection of the other end of the black cable to the batt neg post & see if the starter cranks normally. Holler back when you can.


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: RapidRobert] #2072517
05/13/16 11:06 AM
05/13/16 11:06 AM
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i have also seen the solenoid wire to the starter have internal breaks causing the same "clicking" problem. however, jumping it from the relay will usually cause the starter to work. looks like bad connections at the starter and, or ground path as was stated. or, possibly a bad battery cable [to starter or ground to block] internally broken or corroded or both.
beer

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2072781
05/13/16 06:07 PM
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Did check all the cables today as mentioned. They all looked good and no corrosion or so ever. Tested ground path everywere on the engine, firewall,frame etc...Multimeter reads 13.40 volts on the battery.
Connected the positive lead from meter on the positive post of battery and negative lead everywere I could think off: everywere 13.40 volt so I think ground is ok? Think I remove the starter cause I think the problem is there...

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2072968
05/13/16 11:14 PM
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actually that dont tell you anything cuz there could be only 1 small strand of wire left from head to toe & you'd still get batt voltage. for a valid voltage drop test something needs to be operating so current is flowing so the resistance (voltage drop) can be measured. its like a college dorm with showers and toilets and sinks, people can get a drink out of the sink (the single strand test you did) & no problem but if the system capacity is antiquated (dont flow enough/old plumbing) just like a corroded connection in vehicle wiring, then when some one flushes a stool the guy in the shower gets scalded


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2073209
05/14/16 01:00 PM
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Yeah, of course, you're right. This morning tried to solve the problem again.
I'm sure ground is ok. I think starter is not getting enough volts. After doing some test noticed a thing:
Connected multimeter to battery: 13.5 volts, everything off
Turn key to "ignition on": voltage at battery drops to 11 volts.
IMO to low for starter.
Disconnected voltageregulator: voltage back to 13.5 volts.
Disconnected alternator: voltage also comes back to 13.5 volts.
Is this normal??

Now I suspect the alternator because:

Earlier I had to drill out one of the mountingbolts of the alternator because it had snapped of. While doing this I hit the windings of alternator so there might be a short cicuit in the alt now? Must tell you the startingproblems started after I worked on the alt....

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2073233
05/14/16 01:26 PM
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that is a pretty big drop. your battery might not be as good as you thought.

I would try charging it first and see if you still have an issue. Leave the alt disconnected for now.

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Andrewh] #2073272
05/14/16 02:40 PM
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Charged the battery already: reads 13.5 volt

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2073320
05/14/16 03:47 PM
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so does it crank with the alt disconnected? or still getting clicking?

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2073830
05/15/16 01:46 PM
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Shame on me... blush
Car also wouldn't crank with disconnected alt....
Charged the battery, altough it was reading 13.5 volts, and vrooooem..
Gonna change battery annyway and then back to the overcharging issue.
To be continued..

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2080819
05/26/16 06:18 PM
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Next episode:

Got the time to work on the overcharging issue today. Did all the tests mentioned above and think everyting is ok, except still overcharging, 15 to 17 at idle, running up to 18 volts with increasing rpm !!
Went back in my thoughts when this all started. A few months back I pulled out the alternator to connect a extra wire directly to the starterrelay.
One of the bolts broke and had to drill it out of the alt and make a new thread in it. I noticed then that I slightly hit the windings of the alt while drilling out the broken bolt. Now the windings are a bit damaged, so could thát be the reason of overcharging ?? that the windings are internally short now? Just guessing..

Luigi

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2080835
05/26/16 06:40 PM
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Yes change out the alt. DO NOT run it until you do as that high of voltage will wreak havoc in short order


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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: RapidRobert] #2080883
05/26/16 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Yes change out the alt. DO NOT run it until you do as that high of voltage will wreak havoc in short order


I will not run it for the time being.

Disconnected VR while engine running : 14.5 volt at battery
Disconnected green wire from alt : 14.5 volt at battery

Still a bad alternator?

Googled around about this and read something that a bad battery can also cause overcharging. I haven't changed the bat yet because I first want to solve the overcharging issue...

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2080919
05/26/16 09:16 PM
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yes a bad/sulphated batt can force it to overcharge cuz it wont take a charge so the reg responds by upping the voltage to try & make it charge but if it is being charged to that level (14.5) its gonna stay there for awhile I'm thinking when you disconnect the reg. yes if you can borrow a known good fully charged batt, sub it in for a quick test then you will know before you shotgun money for another alt. (but I'm still thinking alt). EDIT All your connections are clean and tight (including the ground paths)?

Last edited by RapidRobert; 05/26/16 11:10 PM.

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Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: peabodyracing] #2084793
06/02/16 07:32 PM
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Last episode:

Changed the voltage-regulator.....
Solved the problem, engine is running fantástic !! with the right values on the voltmeter..
As often, things are much easier to repair then we mostly think.. up

Luigi

Re: 71 B body charging system woes [Re: Luigi] #2084848
06/02/16 09:36 PM
06/02/16 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Solved the problem, engine is running fantástic.
As often, things are much easier to repair then we mostly think.
(1) good deal (2) over here we call that the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep it simple Sam)


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