Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2042929
03/31/16 08:09 PM
03/31/16 08:09 PM
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Supercuda
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It's not a matter of opinion if it works or not.
It's a matter of fact, it either works or it does not, no opinion involved.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2042957
03/31/16 08:43 PM
03/31/16 08:43 PM
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jcc
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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My opinion, done right, there is no downside. Doing it right, is not always easy or obvious. I also suspect most reports of gains, are more from getting a cooler air inlet source, rather then any 'ram' effect.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043027
03/31/16 10:15 PM
03/31/16 10:15 PM
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Grizzly
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Fiction.
You can "ram" as much air in there as you like, but it won't make fart in the wind difference: there's a thing called an air filter standing in the way.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#2043173
03/31/16 11:53 PM
03/31/16 11:53 PM
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RapidRobert
Circle Track
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cold(er) air & I think there'd have to be some pressure increase. It'd have to have some bennie, maybe alot. No actual back to back testing done here tho
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: RSNOMO]
#2043213
04/01/16 12:20 AM
04/01/16 12:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Ram air works great! The problem is figuring out the correct carburetor mixture from idle to the speed where the ram air works the best without being too rich at idle to that point and when too much air will lean it out!
Last edited by Rhinodart; 04/01/16 12:20 AM.
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043332
04/01/16 08:35 AM
04/01/16 08:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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Problem with the examples given in this thread is that most, if not all, of the improvements are due to not using warm under hood air and are not due to ram air effect. NASA did some testing and it really isn't until you hit 100 mph that any noticeable effect is seen. Of course design (getting above the boundary layer)is important and I don't see any of the pictured scoops designed to do that. I suspect that the mixture issues mentioned are due more to turbulence of the airflow through the carb than a pressure increase in general, after all that is what makes a carb work.
For a street cars, it's for looks. A race car may see ram air effects at the top end of the run.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2043377
04/01/16 10:40 AM
04/01/16 10:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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sixpackbee
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Did a lot of work on this in the old Comp car. Figuring the area of the scoop inlet and where the tipping point was as far as at what speed the scoop was travelling vs the engines inlet demands. At that velocity and higher the engine sees a positive pressure in the scoop. Ram air as it were.
Last edited by sixpackbee; 04/01/16 10:40 AM.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: 360view]
#2043408
04/01/16 12:05 PM
04/01/16 12:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
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jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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"Some strange facts: At 70 mph the center of your tire is moving 70 mph. The bottom of your tire where it 'grabs' the pavement is moving at 0.1 mph The top of your tire is moving forward at 140 mph."
That point was made here in 2011 with an explanation of Weldon's Vegas Indy car fatality, nobody got it then either.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2043431
04/01/16 12:33 PM
04/01/16 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
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360view
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Cool air = better than hot air. In fact I'm surprised that after all these years of hotrodding, the standard open element 4 barrel air cleaner sucking in hot under hood air is still the gold standard. I have wondered about that too. When a gasoline engine is idling, Does it use less gallons in an hour With hot air? At idle Intake side pumping losses are high Because the throttle is nearly closed. Hot air has less oxygen per cubic foot than cold air, So the throttle has to open a bit more And idle vacuum has to drop, Therefore more atmospheric pressure is available To push the piston downward on the intake stroke. This reduces intake pumping loss. My 1995 Magnum 5.9 V8 seems to have a complicated fender side air inlet system that sucks hot engine compartment air at idle, but when the truck is moving gets cooler air from a passage in the fender that has its inlet up by the passenger side headlight. It is so complicated that it has to be designed that way on purpose. Since they are using the fender sheet metal as an air passage, Why didn't the designers get the engine air from a vent high up on the passenger side A pillar. This "snorkle" inlet would have other advantages.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043470
04/01/16 01:17 PM
04/01/16 01:17 PM
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DARTH V8Я
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Ram air busted: because it does not exist, for the following reasons: - Air is incompressible at any automobile speed (I.e. speeds less than Mach 0.3). meaning that the kinetic energy of the air cannot be used to compress the air and raise the static pressure. - The “ram air” nozzles commonly employed on automobiles tend to be the wrong shape. A divergent nozzle is required for ram air. Straight-profile scoops cannot provide a ram air effect. Select one of the two types of intakes, warm air, or cold air. Beyond that its just about looks." Reference https://www.physicsforums.comIntake air temps: The rule of thumb with the average V-8 is 1 hp for every 10 degree (F) drop in intake air temp. That works out to about 1% for 30 degrees. Cold air kits: Busted (sorta) https://youtu.be/gCi2yo4UqPIMost interesting was no air filter made no power gain vs using an standard factory air filter. Makes you think twice about those K&N claims we all seen. Fascinating stuff.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043524
04/01/16 02:13 PM
04/01/16 02:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Cold air kits: Busted (sorta) https://youtu.be/gCi2yo4UqPIMost interesting was no air filter made no power gain vs using an standard factory air filter. Makes you think twice about those K&N claims we all seen. Fascinating stuff. Yet these guys dyno tested a ~400hp mopar big block and found a 14hp difference between a generic 3" paper air filter in an open element air cleaner versus open carb. Clearly these results would vary with engine air intake demands as well as the efficiency of your existing air cleaner, but the filter they used for their dyno testing was pretty standard in the hot rod community. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1307-mopar-engines-power-vs-luxury/
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: 360view]
#2043530
04/01/16 02:15 PM
04/01/16 02:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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My 1995 Magnum 5.9 V8 seems to have a complicated fender side air inlet system that sucks hot engine compartment air at idle, but when the truck is moving gets cooler air from a passage in the fender that has its inlet up by the passenger side headlight.
It is so complicated that it has to be designed that way on purpose.
My 95 5.2 magnum in a jeep grand cherokee just had a generic factory cold air intake just like you would see on any other modern vehicle. IIRC air was drawn in from the headlight bucket area.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2043559
04/01/16 02:41 PM
04/01/16 02:41 PM
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DARTH V8Я
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Yet these guys dyno tested a ~400hp mopar big block and found a 14hp difference between a generic 3" paper air filter in an open element air cleaner versus open carb.
There's something else at foot there. We did that at the track too. Difference in ET was statistically insignificant with a 400 big block in a 74 Satellite Sebring Plus. I believe the ET's were a consistent 14.2 give or take a hundreth.
Last edited by Ice~Eagle; 04/01/16 02:48 PM.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: 360view]
#2043563
04/01/16 02:47 PM
04/01/16 02:47 PM
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My memory is a bit fuzzy, but on the Spitfire airplanes "reverse ram air" was applied to the engine exhaust manifolds and a worthwhile gain in airspeed resulted.
Meredith effect
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043591
04/01/16 03:29 PM
04/01/16 03:29 PM
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sixpackbee
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Air cleaner tests are no good with out carb mixture changes too. This rings true with any induction side testing you do.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043627
04/01/16 04:21 PM
04/01/16 04:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
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jcc
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Ram air busted: because it does not exist, for the following reasons: - Air is incompressible at any automobile speed (I.e. speeds less than Mach 0.3). meaning that the kinetic energy of the air cannot be used to compress the air and raise the static pressure. - The “ram air” nozzles commonly employed on automobiles tend to be the wrong shape. A divergent nozzle is required for ram air. Straight-profile scoops cannot provide a ram air effect. Select one of the two types of intakes, warm air, or cold air. Beyond that its just about looks." Reference https://www.physicsforums.com We must have a failure to communicate here. I wonder if those egg heads are getting hung up on the street meaning of "ram", to me in our application, it only means raising the general air pressure in the vicinity that feeds the carb or whatever, anything that does that in our hobby qualifies to me as "ram", if we aren't splitting hairs. We raise the inlet pressure all the time, sometimes lower it un-intentionally, hence all the comments as to the carb needs tuning for fair comparisons. I pretty much lost interest at the "Incompressibility" at less then mach 3 comment.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043677
04/01/16 05:27 PM
04/01/16 05:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
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A727Tflite
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You get cold air in either case - scoop sealed to the base plate/carb or not - but you pick up power by having a PROPERLY designed scoop sealed to the carb. A poor design can actually SUCK air OUT of the scoop.
On my car in C/SA back in the 70's going 115 or in SS/GA going 125 - hooking up the scoop to the air cleaner baseplate has always produced more power - shown in lower ET and higher MPH.
In fact John Baumman (Chrysler carb expert) jumped in my case when I ran slower at a Milan Test Day after a change in manifolds from the old factory six pack to the STR. When I took the hood off the car and he saw no baseplate he said "there is your problem". I had to "modify" that OE 69-1/2 baseplate with a hacksaw - added some sponge to the outer portion to seal it to the hood - and picked up a solid tenth and 1-1/2 mph. But don't believe any one person - do a base line test - if you have a scoop - attach a sealed base plate to the scoop and make a couple passes then take it off. See what happens. Don't give up because some people offer up invalid assumptions and opinions - TRY IT FOR YOURSELF.
Last edited by Transman; 04/01/16 05:43 PM.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2043691
04/01/16 05:39 PM
04/01/16 05:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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DARTH V8Я
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I pretty much lost interest at the "Incompressibility" at less then mach 3 comment. .(point)3 mach. Around 230mph.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2043696
04/01/16 05:42 PM
04/01/16 05:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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DARTH V8Я
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Don't give up because some people offer up invalid assumptions and opinions - TRY IT FOR YOURSELF.
This is true of people. However the science of fluid dynamics doesn't lie. Great conversation though, interesting opinions
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2043711
04/01/16 05:53 PM
04/01/16 05:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
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A727Tflite
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They may not lie - but they are subject to interpretation. If all else fails - use scientific instruments. Hook up a manometer to the scoop - like Chrysler did back in the day. Yes - the primary purpose of the street scoops were for fresh (colder) air - the race packages were tested and proven to provide "ram air".
Last edited by Transman; 04/01/16 06:07 PM.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2043727
04/01/16 06:13 PM
04/01/16 06:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
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RSNOMO
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They may not lie - but they are subject to interpretation. (Don't waste yer time... He's already made-up his mind...) 'Ram Air' is a myth... FD trumps all...
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2043744
04/01/16 06:34 PM
04/01/16 06:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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DaytonaTurbo
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When I took the hood off the car and he saw no baseplate he said "there is your problem". I think it stands to reason that without a carb to hood seal, between the speed you put on and the fan turning 5000rpm, the engine bay is enough of a high pressure zone to overpower your tiny scoop.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2044262
04/02/16 10:09 AM
04/02/16 10:09 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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A map sensor doesn't show flow turbulence though. turbulent air thru the carb is not optimal. I might need to make one.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2044504
04/02/16 03:38 PM
04/02/16 03:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Spaceman Spiff
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Don't give up because some people offer up invalid assumptions and opinions - TRY IT FOR YOURSELF.
This is true of people. However the science of fluid dynamics doesn't lie. Great conversation though, interesting opinions there is a saying... "spare me your technical BS and show me your time slip" Science and theory is great, but i'll take real world track numbers anyday.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2044611
04/02/16 06:12 PM
04/02/16 06:12 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
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A map sensor doesn't show flow turbulence though. turbulent air thru the carb is not optimal. I might need to make one. There are horsepower dividends to be found here. My builder uses those contoured plastic stub stacks on some of his hydroplane engines. Good for several HP (less than 10) on a 2.5 litre engine. The theory is they straighten out the airflow into the carb. If you race with no air filter, leaving the filter base on depending on how it's shaped is supposed to help for similar reasons. Not knowing the correct engineering speak but it's either aero or fluid dynamics (Maybe both?) at work I believe. Kevin
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2044713
04/02/16 09:07 PM
04/02/16 09:07 PM
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Joined: May 2015
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Iowan
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myth or not, atmospheric presser + 1 is boost, turbo, sc, or ram air.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046536
04/04/16 07:42 PM
04/04/16 07:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
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Air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph. And what the difference between an online forum and some guy writing it out on a chalkboard in the 1930's?
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046553
04/04/16 08:04 PM
04/04/16 08:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
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Ice, explain this: I believe you will find a similar device on every NASCAR vehicle in competition, including those tracks where speeds seldom exceed 120 mph.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046592
04/04/16 08:47 PM
04/04/16 08:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
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Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046656
04/04/16 10:19 PM
04/04/16 10:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
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jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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"But I ain't no engineer"
We agree. LOL
Spend some more time re reading Wiki:
"Compressible aerodynamics[edit] Main article: Compressible flow According to the theory of aerodynamics, a flow is considered to be compressible if its change in density with respect to pressure is non-zero along a streamline. This means that - unlike incompressible flow - changes in density must be considered. In general, this is the case where the Mach number in part or all of the flow exceeds 0.3. The Mach .3 value is rather arbitrary, but it is used because gas flows with a Mach number below that value demonstrate changes in density with respect to the change in pressure of less than 5%. Furthermore, that maximum 5% density change occurs at the stagnation point of an object immersed in the gas flow and the density changes around the rest of the object will be significantly lower. Transonic, supersonic, and hypersonic flows are all compressible."
The word "arbitrary" stands out above, and the "compressibility" expressed is in terms mainly of aircraft aerodynamics, engine nlet intakes are much more responsive/sensitive to very low pressure changes relating to the original question posed, "fact or fiction", not "worth it or Not"
Last edited by jcc; 04/04/16 11:21 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2046665
04/04/16 10:30 PM
04/04/16 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,667 Buford, GA
I_bleed_MOPAR
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IIRC, some years back one of the car mags did extensive testing of cold-air induction systems. I do recall one thing they mentioned was boundary layer air and the need to raise most scoops higher above the hood line to realize a true gain. "Ram Air" is somewhat of a misnomer as related to automobiles and seems to really be confusing some folks who are trying to take it literally. Tim
'71 Charger 383/727 '17 Challenger SXT (Wifeys car )
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: RSNOMO]
#2046710
04/04/16 11:22 PM
04/04/16 11:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
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OP
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This has GOT to be a record-breaking troll thread... Troll thread? Then I suggest you hit the notify button and give a reason to the moderators. Thanks.
Last edited by Ice~Eagle; 04/04/16 11:22 PM.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046719
04/04/16 11:32 PM
04/04/16 11:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,818 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Kirkland, Washington
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FACT or FICTION: Would be interested in hearing your guys opinions. The trolling began with this post. You are not interested in hearing our "opinions", you are interested in trying to prove a point and therefore making yourself appear knowledgeable. I don't think it worked.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2046724
04/04/16 11:38 PM
04/04/16 11:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
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FACT or FICTION: Would be interested in hearing your guys opinions. The trolling began with this post. You are not interested in hearing our "opinions", you are interested in trying to prove a point and therefore making yourself appear knowledgeable. I don't think it worked. I'm not trying to prove a point.It's called counter arguments. That why I said I'm interested in all opinions. Had my mind sorta made up.. but not really. But whatevs dude.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2046921
04/05/16 09:51 AM
04/05/16 09:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
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jersey
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol. Chevrolet did that with the '63 impala Z-11 cars.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2046937
04/05/16 10:19 AM
04/05/16 10:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol. Chevrolet did that with the '63 impala Z-11 cars. You really mean "Smokey"?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2047081
04/05/16 01:47 PM
04/05/16 01:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
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jersey
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol. Chevrolet did that with the '63 impala Z-11 cars. You really mean "Smokey"? They all had them. Maybe smokey came up with the idea, but it was standard on all the Z11 cars, even Ronnie Sox's.... http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/muscle-cars-you-should-know-63-chevrolet-z11-impala-427/
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: GY3]
#2047132
04/05/16 02:46 PM
04/05/16 02:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
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Its a TRAP!
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ok then. Red line is normal atmospheric pressure.where's the boost from ram air?
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047138
04/05/16 02:54 PM
04/05/16 02:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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We have a different benchmark I guess for what makes a fact vs a myth then. All I see is colored graphs.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047178
04/05/16 03:39 PM
04/05/16 03:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol. So, ram air works, eh?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: feets]
#2047208
04/05/16 04:21 PM
04/05/16 04:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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underhood = lower pressure near the windshield = higher pressure
the higher pressure air just moves into the area of lower pressure.
Considering most NASCAR noses are completely blocked off from incoming air and no scoops allowed, drawing air from the cowl is the most convenient spot I would think. But I ain't no engineer lol. So, ram air works, eh? In that sense, you're sure right buddy!
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2047232
04/05/16 04:57 PM
04/05/16 04:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
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Oregon
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Exactly, a couple of graphs with no explanation of what they are does not prove or disprove anything.
If you want to see ram air in action then call a Pro Stock team and ask them for a pressure reading from the air box during a 1/4 mile run. Or call up a NASCAR team and ask them the same info. Or to make it simple call Dave Braswell and ask him how much air pressure a Pro Stock carb sees in the lights and how it changes the AF ratio.
Last edited by AndyF; 04/05/16 04:59 PM.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2047257
04/05/16 05:34 PM
04/05/16 05:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
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Its a TRAP!
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Exactly, a couple of graphs with no explanation of what they are does not prove or disprove anything.
If you want to see ram air in action then call a Pro Stock team and ask them for a pressure reading from the air box during a 1/4 mile run. Or call up a NASCAR team and ask them the same info. Or to make it simple call Dave Braswell and ask him how much air pressure a Pro Stock carb sees in the lights and how it changes the AF ratio. if you have contactinfo i'd call! i'd be curious to see exactly whats going on. Thanks good Sir.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047259
04/05/16 05:42 PM
04/05/16 05:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
master
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master
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Posts: 3,060
Western New York
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Depending on scoop inlet area, as soon as the vehicle sees a specific velocity that creates a flow volume greater than the engines need at its specific RPM you will, from that point and accelerating further, have a positive pressure situation.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047261
04/05/16 05:47 PM
04/05/16 05:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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ok then. Red line is normal atmospheric pressure.where's the boost from ram air? What is the bottom value (X axis) and why are the graphs so different?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047266
04/05/16 06:14 PM
04/05/16 06:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Basically what this is saying is that +.34 Psi @ 14.21 psi = + 17hp difference IN FAVOR of ram air. Which is good. However air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph IE: 14.7psi @ sea level + xx value.
So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed, to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047273
04/05/16 06:27 PM
04/05/16 06:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,822 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,822
MI, usa
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Basically what this is saying is that +.34 Psi @ 14.21 psi = + 17hp difference IN FAVOR of ram air. Which is good. However air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph IE: 14.7psi @ sea level + xx value.
So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed, to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx. Exactly, you don't necessarily need boost to create more power, more flow will do that. However there are plenty of MAP readings out there showing above and below atmospheric pressure depending of configuration of the inlet. Do you think a knowledgeable racer would sacrifice aerodynamics of a protruding hood scoop if it slowed the car down? I think not. Do you think none of these teams test? Doug
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047274
04/05/16 06:31 PM
04/05/16 06:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Basically what this is saying is that +.34 Psi @ 14.21 psi = + 17hp difference IN FAVOR of ram air. Which is good. However air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph IE: 14.7psi @ sea level + xx value.
So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed, to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx. BS
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2047275
04/05/16 06:33 PM
04/05/16 06:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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Thats it? Then what's your insight? Cause BS is the answer of a prepubescent teen.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047308
04/05/16 07:16 PM
04/05/16 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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Basically what this is saying is that +.34 Psi @ 14.21 psi = + 17hp difference IN FAVOR of ram air. Which is good. However air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph IE: 14.7psi @ sea level + xx value.
So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed, to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx. So, who said it created positive manifold pressure at common race speeds? If it reduces the amount of vacuum in an intake then it has been successful. It does not require pressures above barometric. Air inlets of different shapes and sizes will create different pressures. Combine that with different air demands of different engine/chassis/speed combos and you're all over the board. As for JCC, don't try to make him think something he doesn't want to think. He has his own little ways of fighting for his preconceived notions. That's why I have him on ignore.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2047324
04/05/16 07:43 PM
04/05/16 07:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 528 SW CO
HemiSportFury
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 528
SW CO
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Something is wrong with your basic assumption that air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph. That statement is false, air is compressible at any speed. So that original statement needs to be run down and understood. I think it is causing all of your confusion. Agree with this statement, although it's been a long time since I got my ME degree. To the OP, please identify the source of your info? Seems to me there may be some confusion there since air absolutely is compressible, but in calculating line losses in fluid flow it was acceptable to treat air as "incompressible" within a small range. If the pressure drop (hence the change in density/volume) was too great you would you would have to break the system into smaller segments to do the calculations. Of course, that was back in the day when YOU actually did the calculations, and not just feed info into a computer that spits out a number.
Last edited by HemiSportFury; 04/05/16 07:46 PM.
'64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60 '57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process '19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite '03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047334
04/05/16 07:53 PM
04/05/16 07:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
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Its a TRAP!
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Last edited by Ice~Eagle; 04/05/16 07:54 PM.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047391
04/05/16 09:16 PM
04/05/16 09:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 528 SW CO
HemiSportFury
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2005
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SW CO
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From your source:
"the Mach number (the ratio of the speed of the flow to the speed of sound) must be greater than about 0.3 (since the density change is greater than 5% in that case) before significant compressibility occurs."
Key word: significant. It does not say it is not compressible, just not significant. So what everyone has been saying is correct, and there absolutely is a pressure change and a potential performance gain possible from ram air.
'64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60 '57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process '19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite '03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047444
04/05/16 10:29 PM
04/05/16 10:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 528 SW CO
HemiSportFury
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 528
SW CO
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Also, look up velocity pressure or dynamic pressure, since that is the physical phenomenon that comes into play in this situation. You will see, that for relatively low velocities, (less than 0.3M above) the equations converge for compressible and incompressible flow. So you could use the equation:
q = 1/2 pv*2
to calculate the pressure gain.
'64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60 '57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process '19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite '03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047447
04/05/16 10:34 PM
04/05/16 10:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
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Oregon
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Basically what this is saying is that +.34 Psi @ 14.21 psi = + 17hp difference IN FAVOR of ram air. Which is good. However air is incompressible at speeds below 230mph IE: 14.7psi @ sea level + xx value.
So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed, to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx. You've drawn the wrong conclusion. Go look up how a pitot tube works and you'll see that there is something called dynamic pressure. A hood scoop creates dynamic pressure at any speed. There is nothing magic about 230 mph. An Indy car creates down force well before 230 mph. Small airplanes fly at speeds lower than 230 mph.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047475
04/05/16 10:54 PM
04/05/16 10:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Thats it? Then what's your insight? Cause BS is the answer of a prepubescent teen. Well, nothing else seemed to be working. And you asked for opinions, 3 or 4 times I have already given reasons contrary to your thinking, among others who have also, and you keep making statements with out any backup, and now are using charts referencing aircraft design considerations, which have little bearing on this forum or topic, and you continue to ignore those concerns voiced by many, and in deference to feets, they have yet gotten to the point of simply call a spade a spade, or as I succinctly stated, "BS", which seems still pretty accurate. "Feets" taking a shot at me about my comments here. when you have me on "ignore", bizarre Somebody Quote me please
Last edited by jcc; 04/05/16 11:09 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2047567
04/06/16 12:16 AM
04/06/16 12:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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Stir the pot. You hit it there buddy. I think it clearly explains that the is a marginal PSI increase up to 14.7psi. .25psi .30psi whatever. Now that example of a 17hp increase was was an example for 200hp engine. On a 1000hp engine it would be around 85 hp increase from a .25psi gain. Obviously it doesn't take the cooler air into consideration because it'll be more yet. No BOOST yet. From what I read, you'll make BOOST after 230mph from ram air. 15.5psi, 15.7psi 16psi. In other words 1psi above atmospheric pressure increase per xxmph above 230. K? K.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047719
04/06/16 08:56 AM
04/06/16 08:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
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master
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Posts: 3,696
jersey
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Stir the pot. You hit it there buddy. I think it clearly explains that the is a marginal PSI increase up to 14.7psi. .25psi .30psi whatever. Now that example of a 17hp increase was was an example for 200hp engine. On a 1000hp engine it would be around 85 hp increase from a .25psi gain. Obviously it doesn't take the cooler air into consideration because it'll be more yet. No BOOST yet. From what I read, you'll make BOOST after 230mph from ram air. 15.5psi, 15.7psi 16psi. In other words 1psi above atmospheric pressure increase per xxmph above 230. K? K. When you can back up your claims, with actual TRACK TIMES, instead of just "theory", then report back. K?
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2047743
04/06/16 10:11 AM
04/06/16 10:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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Stir the pot. You hit it there buddy. I think it clearly explains that the is a marginal PSI increase up to 14.7psi. .25psi .30psi whatever. Now that example of a 17hp increase was was an example for 200hp engine. On a 1000hp engine it would be around 85 hp increase from a .25psi gain. Obviously it doesn't take the cooler air into consideration because it'll be more yet. No BOOST yet. From what I read, you'll make BOOST after 230mph from ram air. 15.5psi, 15.7psi 16psi. In other words 1psi above atmospheric pressure increase per xxmph above 230. K? K. When you can back up your claims, with actual TRACK TIMES, instead of just "theory", then report back. K? Why did IE go from "The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?" to "boost"? Ram air works, even if it does nothing more than allow the engine to get cooler air. I suspect that was the intent of most air grabber type systems.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2047750
04/06/16 10:34 AM
04/06/16 10:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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Why are you so hung up on 230 mph? The air molecules don't know how fast the hood scoop is going. It isn't like they look at a car and say "it is only going 210 mph so we're not jumping in".
The pressure in a hood scoop will increase with the square of the velocity starting from zero. It isn't a light switch that turns on at 230 mph. There will be positive pressure (greater than 14.7 psi) at any speed above zero. The equation was posted back on page one of this thread. Well it's just the fluid dynamics theory. That's all. Show me the contrary proof that ram air can give positive pressure. Again, great conversation (some notable exceptions however).
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2047780
04/06/16 11:18 AM
04/06/16 11:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Why are you so hung up on 230 mph? The air molecules don't know how fast the hood scoop is going. It isn't like they look at a car and say "it is only going 210 mph so we're not jumping in".
Where is that dead horse thingy? Just being honest here, "Idiocracy meets Moparts" thread This has been a fun waste of time.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047802
04/06/16 11:37 AM
04/06/16 11:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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Western New York
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Show me the contrary proof that ram air can give positive pressure
As I said in an earlier post: Depending on scoop inlet area, as soon as the vehicle sees a specific velocity that creates a flow volume greater than the engines need at its specific RPM you will, from that point and accelerating further, have a positive pressure situation.
This theory you have with those graphs are for clean flow situations like air passing over an aircrafts wing. They have no bearing here. Now for the above: Lets take an engine with an air consumption rate of 1000cfm. Now the vehicle has a scoop with an inlet area of 30in^ or .21ft^ We know Q=VA, where Q is volume fluid flow in this case in CFM. V= the vehicle velocity. A= the area of the scoop. Simple algebra V=Q/A 1000/.21=4761.9 FT/Min or 54.1MPH At that velocity and above pressure will start to increase. More air entering than the engine normally consumes so the unused air compresses and builds pressure within the scoop. How much is hard to calculate as there are turbulence issues in the scoop. We actually had a scoop on the Comp car that created enough reversion above the carb that it sucked fuel out of the vent tubes at a certain speed. Took a while to figure that one out. I am now out on this subject.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047839
04/06/16 12:06 PM
04/06/16 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
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Well it's just the fluid dynamics theory. That's all. Show me the contrary proof that ram air can give positive pressure. That has been done several times on this thread. You seem to have your brain locked on something and won't let it go. Positive is defined as an increase. If a container has 12 inches of vacuum and you raise the pressure to 3 inches of vacuum that is considered a positive increase in pressure. While still a vacuum, the pressure is higher than before. You seem to be the only one fixated with pressures above barometric. Again, great conversation (some notable exceptions however). Sadly, the primary exception seems to be the OP.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: justinp61]
#2047842
04/06/16 12:09 PM
04/06/16 12:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,664 Wichita
GY3
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Wichita
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Stir the pot. You hit it there buddy. I think it clearly explains that the is a marginal PSI increase up to 14.7psi. .25psi .30psi whatever. Now that example of a 17hp increase was was an example for 200hp engine. On a 1000hp engine it would be around 85 hp increase from a .25psi gain. Obviously it doesn't take the cooler air into consideration because it'll be more yet. No BOOST yet. From what I read, you'll make BOOST after 230mph from ram air. 15.5psi, 15.7psi 16psi. In other words 1psi above atmospheric pressure increase per xxmph above 230. K? K. When you can back up your claims, with actual TRACK TIMES, instead of just "theory", then report back. K? Why did IE go from "The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?" to "boost"? Ram air works, even if it does nothing more than allow the engine to get cooler air. I suspect that was the intent of most air grabber type systems. That can't work. It's way too obvious and simple of an answer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047872
04/06/16 12:36 PM
04/06/16 12:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
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Oregon
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Why are you so hung up on 230 mph? The air molecules don't know how fast the hood scoop is going. It isn't like they look at a car and say "it is only going 210 mph so we're not jumping in".
The pressure in a hood scoop will increase with the square of the velocity starting from zero. It isn't a light switch that turns on at 230 mph. There will be positive pressure (greater than 14.7 psi) at any speed above zero. The equation was posted back on page one of this thread. Well it's just the fluid dynamics theory. That's all. Show me the contrary proof that ram air can give positive pressure. Again, great conversation (some notable exceptions however). You don't understand fluid dynamics. You read a Wiki article and didn't understand it and now it appears that your brain has locked up. If you understood fluid dynamics then you would understand the concept of dynamic pressure and how to calculate it. You would look at how a pitot tube works and you would understand that it is the same principle as a hood scoop. If you had any sense at all you would type a few search terms into Google and come up with stuff like this thread: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366312
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2047928
04/06/16 01:43 PM
04/06/16 01:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
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jersey
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I've been in cars with no hood, and no air cleaner, and fuel getting sucked from the carb, onto the windshield...
I also assume all racecars with brake cooling ducts are just for looks, as air can't possibly be rammed in and be affective....
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2048024
04/06/16 03:23 PM
04/06/16 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992
Oregon
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Just hook up a manometer to an air box and you'll see that it generates positive pressure even at highway speeds. That is all the proof that you need.
Here is the graph of dynamic pressure relative to speed. A well design air scoop should be able to capture most of this pressure. I think this chart comes from Moparts member Mark W.
Last edited by AndyF; 04/06/16 03:37 PM.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2048069
04/06/16 04:09 PM
04/06/16 04:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,091 oberlin, Ohio
Rapid340
top fuel
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top fuel
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oberlin, Ohio
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I spent some time talking to a guy that raced 68 W31's (ramrod 350) for Oldsmobile. The 68 cars used two ducts routed to scoops under the front bumper. He did a good bit of testing and reported that this was worth significant ET and MPH improvement. He did mention that the scoop-under the bumper design on the 68 cars where more effective than the sealed hood scoop design used on the 70 cars.
Also, aside from any increased intake pressure effect, we know a cooler intake charge is beneficial.
1971 Factory Appearing Duster 340 11.000 @ 122 mph
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: 360view]
#2048136
04/06/16 05:34 PM
04/06/16 05:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
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Past threads about tailgate up or down Have sadly gone down the path of this one.
What if you leave the tailgate down on your treadmill?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: dvw]
#2048501
04/07/16 12:24 AM
04/07/16 12:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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Canton, Ohio
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id you ever stick your hand out the window while running at 60 mph? What did it do, just sit there? I think not. Doug My hand didn't do a thing till about 230 mph, then oh yeah, felt the boost. Just did it, nothing before that though, strange???
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: AndyF]
#2048510
04/07/16 12:33 AM
04/07/16 12:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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Canton, Ohio
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Just hook up a manometer to an air box and you'll see that it generates positive pressure even at highway speeds. That is all the proof that you need.
Here is the graph of dynamic pressure relative to speed. A well design air scoop should be able to capture most of this pressure. I think this chart comes from Moparts member Mark W. Ram air is indeed beneficial all over in all engine related performance builds, across all, industries.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Sport440]
#2048606
04/07/16 05:02 AM
04/07/16 05:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,653 Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340
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Cut and Shoot, TX
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I'll bet 99% of forum members already knew that hood scoops and cool air ducts improve performance by only a small amount in real world driving.
Since lots of people think scoops look sexy, they aren't going away anytime soon, which will no doubt keep discussions like this one going.
Every NASCAR car that I have seen up close was getting intake air from the bottom of the windshield by way of a carbon fiber air box from the firewall to the carb. I'm pretty sure each and every NASCAR car has these air boxes that feed the carb cool air and supposedly higher pressure air that piles up at the bottom of the windshield at high speeds.
If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2048878
04/07/16 03:07 PM
04/07/16 03:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Hood scoops slow them down, stick your hand out the window at 60 mph, now at 200, still got a hand? Benefit of scoops are less than the drag it produces, so they use the cowl, no drag and good results. NASCAR from day one said they where not allowed. You are implying exactly what? And are you going to share your idea of why from the get go (1959?) why Nascar has never allowed hood scoops on "stock" cars? Or why NHRA has recently restricted them on Pro Stocks? I agree, this never ending thread needs to be renamed "Moparts Mythbusters".
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2049055
04/07/16 06:26 PM
04/07/16 06:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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Wow.. this is turning into the "can a propeller plane take off from a conveyer belt" fiasco.
Maybe Mythbusters can say confirmed/busted lol. Oh but they ain't on the air anymore..
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2049273
04/07/16 10:30 PM
04/07/16 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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Utah and Alaska
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Every airplane in the world uses a Pitot tube which is ram air to move a gauge. You are using aerodynamic concepts for compressibility in front of an airfoil. Wrong use of application, but hey what do I know? I have only worked on everything from a 747 to an F-15 to a UH-1 to a super cub..... http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Article_Pitot_Static_Blockages_02.aspx Why are you so hung up on 230 mph? The air molecules don't know how fast the hood scoop is going. It isn't like they look at a car and say "it is only going 210 mph so we're not jumping in".
The pressure in a hood scoop will increase with the square of the velocity starting from zero. It isn't a light switch that turns on at 230 mph. There will be positive pressure (greater than 14.7 psi) at any speed above zero. The equation was posted back on page one of this thread. Well it's just the fluid dynamics theory. That's all. Show me the contrary proof that ram air can give positive pressure. Again, great conversation (some notable exceptions however).
Last edited by astjp2; 04/07/16 10:34 PM.
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2049282
04/07/16 10:36 PM
04/07/16 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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Wow.. this is turning into the "can a propeller plane take off from a conveyer belt" fiasco.
Maybe Mythbusters can say confirmed/busted lol. Oh but they ain't on the air anymore.. actually it can. coming from someone who landed on a moving freight train...
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2049550
04/08/16 10:48 AM
04/08/16 10:48 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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"And are you going to share your idea"
Nah, look it up, I did The complete question was "And are you going to share your idea of why from the get go (1959?) why Nascar has never allowed hood scoops on "stock" cars?" Then care to share what you looked up, and what you discovered, and your source, like a grown up? You likely will find that "Nascar" adhered to the philosophy of maintaining a stock appearing car like the paying spectator drove in the late 50's, and hood scoops were not part of that look, I suspect the tradition took hold thru till today on hood scoops. Aero concerns of turbulence of air scoops was not on the radar back then in stock car racing. The cowl intake solution was a clever successful later work around.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2049699
04/08/16 02:18 PM
04/08/16 02:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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The cowl intake solution was a clever successful later work around. According to Chevrolet, they couldn't figure out why there Chevrolets were slowing down as the race wore on and the Pontiacs were faster with 25 less horsepower. It was determined that the Pontiacs engine bays were running 20-30* cooler than the Chevrolets. After some experimentation at Daytona speedweek, the NASCAR cowl induction was born. Just so happens Popular Hot Rodding magazine did a test with a NASCAR style cowl induction: "One thing to keep in mind is that this sort of induction doesn’t really offer any true ram effect, and, in fact, most ram-air-style systems don’t either until very high speeds—and even then the pressure increase is pretty negligible. Since cooler air is denser air, and denser air makes more power, the real goal is to provide the engine with an easy source of the coolest air possible."
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2049901
04/08/16 06:26 PM
04/08/16 06:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,163 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Plymouth, MI
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Well, it's clear astjp2 won the thread with an actual graph of pressure vs. airspeed.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Blusmbl]
#2049989
04/08/16 08:41 PM
04/08/16 08:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Well, it's clear astjp2 won the thread with an actual graph of pressure vs. airspeed. Be careful with that conclusion, there have been graphs shown by parties here with opposing views, interpreting the graphs is the key. I'll try to find the graph of protagonist "certainty" vs intelligence. PS read my sig link.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: jcc]
#2050025
04/08/16 09:53 PM
04/08/16 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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master
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
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Well, it's clear astjp2 won the thread with an actual graph of pressure vs. airspeed. Be careful with that conclusion, there have been graphs shown by parties here with opposing views, interpreting the graphs is the key. I'll try to find the graph of protagonist "certainty" vs intelligence. PS read my sig link. So you are saying that every aircraft that uses an airspeed indicator is wrong? Or that my graphic is bad data? That is where those numbers come from. The size of the opening does not change the pressure either, a 1/4" pitot and a 3" have the same pressure, the larger one has more overall force because of the cross section but the pressure inside is the same. Tim
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: astjp2]
#2050027
04/08/16 09:56 PM
04/08/16 09:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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Well, it's clear astjp2 won the thread with an actual graph of pressure vs. airspeed. Be careful with that conclusion, there have been graphs shown by parties here with opposing views, interpreting the graphs is the key. I'll try to find the graph of protagonist "certainty" vs intelligence. PS read my sig link. So you are saying that every aircraft that uses an airspeed indicator is wrong? Or that my graphic is bad data? That is where those numbers come from. The size of the opening does not change the pressure either, a 1/4" pitot and a 3" have the same pressure, the larger one has more overall force because of the cross section but the pressure inside is the same. Tim No, what I saying is, blind faith in graphs(?) is what started this train wreck, blind faith is the problem, not the graphs.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: Blusmbl]
#2050043
04/08/16 10:24 PM
04/08/16 10:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,992
Oregon
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Well, it's clear astjp2 won the thread with an actual graph of pressure vs. airspeed. The equation for that graph was provided back on page one of the thread so the answer was here the whole time. The OP just had "wiki induced brain freeze" which is a relatively new disease. Didn't exist when I was a kid.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050155
04/09/16 01:50 AM
04/09/16 01:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154 Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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OP
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
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Your just not getting it SHOW ME BOOST! On a car, not a plane, boat, ship, jet, ufo, mosquito after taco night, a bad night of explosive diarrhea but a car travelling at 100mph, or even 200mph, with ram air induction showing BOOST. Pretty simple request. RE:
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050189
04/09/16 03:58 AM
04/09/16 03:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
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Your just not getting it
SHOW ME BOOST! I think YOU'RE (not your) not getting it. You want boost? Look inside the pitot tube. There is your boost. Even if you stick one on a car. ANY increase in pressure is technically boost. Raising a vacuum 1" closer to atmospheric pressure is boost. If you want to see 14.8 psi inside an engine on a 14.7 ambient day without going stupid fast then you're going to need mechanical assistance. There. Are you happy?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050296
04/09/16 11:21 AM
04/09/16 11:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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master
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fredericksburg,va
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The cowl intake solution was a clever successful later work around. According to Chevrolet, they couldn't figure out why there Chevrolets were slowing down as the race wore on and the Pontiacs were faster with 25 less horsepower. It was determined that the Pontiacs engine bays were running 20-30* cooler than the Chevrolets. After some experimentation at Daytona speedweek, the NASCAR cowl induction was born. Just so happens Popular Hot Rodding magazine did a test with a NASCAR style cowl induction: "One thing to keep in mind is that this sort of induction doesn’t really offer any true ram effect, and, in fact, most ram-air-style systems don’t either until very high speeds—and even then the pressure increase is pretty negligible. Since cooler air is denser air, and denser air makes more power, the real goal is to provide the engine with an easy source of the coolest air possible." See I didn't have to show anything.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050303
04/09/16 11:28 AM
04/09/16 11:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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The cowl intake solution was a clever successful later work around. According to Chevrolet, they couldn't figure out why there Chevrolets were slowing down as the race wore on and the Pontiacs were faster with 25 less horsepower. It was determined that the Pontiacs engine bays were running 20-30* cooler than the Chevrolets. After some experimentation at Daytona speedweek, the NASCAR cowl induction was born. Just so happens Popular Hot Rodding magazine did a test with a NASCAR style cowl induction: "One thing to keep in mind is that this sort of induction doesn’t really offer any true ram effect, and, in fact, most ram-air-style systems don’t either until very high speeds—and even then the pressure increase is pretty negligible. Since cooler air is denser air, and denser air makes more power, the real goal is to provide the engine with an easy source of the coolest air possible." I make a real concerted effort to not let these things go personal. But The Pontiac/Chevrolet tidbit above has me raising my eyebrows, again, because I have never heard that explanation before, there is no obvious explanation for his conclusion, no quoted source/reference, the author who is connecting the dots, and the author's track record here on this thread, already connecting unrelated dots. Just my opinion before it gets written in stone.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050824
04/10/16 03:14 AM
04/10/16 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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So the ram air does work at bringing the PSI close to atmospheric pressure of 14.7, but will not cross that threshold until ground or airspeed reaches at least 230mph.
So myth confirmed to a point. My apologies, as I should have said ram air to create boost, as boost defined as 14.7psi +xx.
Sport440 {Why would ram air boost stop at 14.7???} Answer, It doesn't. It increases from whatever the starting atmospheric pressure is currently at. BUT, It WILL, still be Boost, A Increase in PSI with a Working Ram air Effect. ANY Increase is BOOST by definition. [/quote] Sport440, Okay Now you changed your original question, From,...{ The Myth of ram air...does it WORK in cars/trucks} TO;{{ Boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx}} Ram air boost can start at any MPH from zero and increase from there. There have been formulas and charts posted to prove that. It takes 70 millibars to achieve 1 psi of boost. Ram air systems, for most of us will be below this level, but still capable of .50 psi around 150 MPH .25 psi around 100 MPH .125 around 80 MPH So pick your MPH from any of the above for your {Boost is defined as 14.7psi + xx} and add that. 14.7 + .25/100 MPH = BOOST Ram air is{ No myth}. CONFIRMED
Last edited by Sport440; 04/10/16 04:41 AM.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2050848
04/10/16 04:38 AM
04/10/16 04:38 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861 Riverside, Ca
R70RUNNER
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
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Probably the best apples to apples comparison offered. This car is a 1994 SLP firehawk (Ed Hamberger's company.) The only changes done between this car and the 1994 V8 firebird is the "ram air" induction... The standard V8 firebird made a rated 275 crank hp the firehawk made a rated 300 crank hp. Same heads,cam, exhaust (the optional exhaust added 15more) same throttle body. Ect. There was a tune change required and a map location change required but nothing crazy because the car still had to pass cal emissions... Basically, Just the hood which is sealed to and feeds directly into the throttle body. Now you could say "oh its marketing" but time slips don't lie. The std V8 FB was no match for the same year Vette in 0-60 or 1/4 mile...But the Firehawk easily beat the Vette which btw also used the same LT1 engine with a different cam. So, Ram air > camshaft in power gain. Yes there's suspension changes, and vette sized wheels and tires. No gear changes. Please explain this any other way.
Current cars: 2000 Dak Quad Cab, 2012 Challenger,1970 Road Runner, 1994 Firehawk
1966 Coronet post sedan, 1988 Corvette, 2005 Magnum RT all SOLD
R70RUNNER<---VP Inland Empire Chapter of the MPM
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2055539
04/16/16 02:05 PM
04/16/16 02:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938 Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
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You got your answer in the first few posts. It's about fresh or cold air. A scoop that isolates the intake to the air outside the engine compartment will get you colder, denser air. A scoop above the boundary area is going to get you more cold, dense air no matter what speed you're traveling. I've been told this is good. Ram Air is a name Pontiac concocted, as did dodge with Ramcharger. It all works to get you fresh air, which is exactly why Chrysler referred to N96 as the... Fresh Air package and not the Forced Air package. The last four pages of forced air debate is off topic. Ram air works, my friend, and lucky for you, the 1969 1/2 A12 cars have the best production scoops ever produced. Go now. Celebrate.
I’m listening.
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Re: The "myth" of ram air.. does it WORK in cars/trucks?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#2055982
04/17/16 05:02 AM
04/17/16 05:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,847 Missouri
StrokerPost
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,847
Missouri
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FACT or FICTION: Would be interested in hearing your guys opinions. Everyone is going to have an opinion ranging from their seat of the pants feel, to the highly educated and scientific, so I will skip an opinion and give my personal "i did this" report. For years on my Dart drag car I ran just a flat hood with with a 14" x 3" air filter, then after a time I decided to try a dual ram air set up just to see if it would net anything. I used flex dryer duct from the air cleaner down next to the radiator and attached to the underside of the bumper, just about a foot off the ground. After running that set up for about a year and having torn it off a couple of times loading it onto my trailer I decided it was time to lose that and go with a hood scoop. Before to ditched the ram air set up completely, I wanted to test all 3 set ups to see the difference between them. Keep in mind that the air cleaner used with the ram air dual inlet had no air filter, I just used a 3" wide piece of sheet metal shaped to the same circumference as the filter, cut 2 oval shaped holes in it for the snorkel fittings and put a lid on it. I didn't want the filter to be a restriction. Here are the results for the test, all on the same day, all within an hour of each other in like conditions... Run 1, 14" x 3" air cleaner with filter, no ram air-11.57 ET Run 2, 14" x 3" air cleaner assy without filter with dual inlet ram air-11.42 ET Run 3, ram air assy removed including filter assy, carb sealed to underside of hood with foam, with the scoop in my sig pic-11.27 ET. Point of interest and probably disagreement, there are those that will say the gain from run 1 to run 2 (adding ram air) was only from introducing cooler air, but on the hottest of days, with the ram air inlet only about 12" off the pavement, that air isn't going to be to cool, not as cool as the underhood air temp once the car was making speed, and the car on any given day was always about a tenth and a half quicker with the ram air. I do believe its a combination of both, and the fact that I had to jet up the carb 2 jet sizes tells me that more air IS being forced into the engine. A LOT of air moves into and out of the engine compartment through the grill opening at speed. I believe the even bigger pick up with the sealed hood scoop was a combination of a shorter, more direct path to the carb and the air being forced downward, and a cooler charge of air given it was coming in through a much higher opening, never coming in contact with the underhood heat at any point. Whichever you believe is the correct answer, the FACT is, it works!
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