Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2015891
02/20/16 03:25 AM
02/20/16 03:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,222
Someplace you aren't
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Unless its wounded i would just run the short block as is. Spend your money on the heads and any other odds and ends you need, like ignition, carb, etc. save your coins and next teardown you will have all the goods to hang on a well done short block. Otherwise you'll just end up with crap shoot used, mismatched, machine work not ideal for later, or stuff you wont want when you do it right at some point.
I want my fair share
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#2015922
02/20/16 05:19 AM
02/20/16 05:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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Agreed, get up & running within a reasonable length of time & you can build a better spot on eng in your liesure. easy to let a project drag on & that robs you of actual seat enjoyment time. I'd rather have a mediocre running car eng/build with a killer (stroker!) eng coming together on the stand
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#2015946
02/20/16 09:46 AM
02/20/16 09:46 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318 Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
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Unless its wounded i would just run the short block as is. Spend your money on the heads and any other odds and ends you need, like ignition, carb, etc. save your coins and next teardown you will have all the goods to hang on a well done short block. Otherwise you'll just end up with crap shoot used, mismatched, machine work not ideal for later, or stuff you wont want when you do it right at some point. There is no way that you will be able to get into and back out of the short block, and do heads for your budget. The power is in the heads. Buy the smallest combustion chamber aluminum head (75 cc?) and a nice hydraulic cam and timing set. If there is money left over, put that into the heads too. Do you need any of this stuff, and is this in your $2,000 budget? Oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter, fuel line, fuel clamps, anti freeze, radiator hoses, clamps, belts, fasteners, gaskets (timing, water pump, head, exhaust, intake, carb, valve cover…), gasket sealants, cleaners, paint, spark plugs, plug wires, oil pump, oil pump drive shaft.,,,,,,
Last edited by BSB67; 02/20/16 09:49 AM.
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2016023
02/20/16 01:12 PM
02/20/16 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,785 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,785
Holland MI Ottawa
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$2000 is not alot of money to do a 440 the way theyre typically done nowadays. If you had a pre 1971 440 that runs good you could do the old fashioned rings gaskets bearings cam lifters and springs. Good carb and good factory intake or used aftermarket and some $140 headers. If you will be paying a shop to do the assemlby that will take a chunk of your 2k budget right there.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2016092
02/20/16 03:32 PM
02/20/16 03:32 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,567 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,567
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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You need to confirm exactly what the core engines you have to choose from are. In a perfect world one of those cores is from a 67 New Yorker with 915 heads and 40,000 miles on it. That one you could hit your goal by accident for $2K. Dingle ball hone it, good valve job, re-ring it, add camshaft to taste and done, stock intake and all. The only problem might be lack of longevity because the heads won't have hardened seats. Might be a problem might not. Anything with 452 heads is going to have pistons .120"+ in the hole so the compression sux. 8:1ish advertised and closer to 7.5:1 when measured. Motorhome engine will be the same. They will also be externally balanced with cast cranks if that is a concern for you. Camshaft selection will be critical to make this package work and still make bottom end torque, but is doable. 906 heads were on 68 to 71 and all those engines had 10:1ish advertised compression and forged cranks so if you have an unmolested core with 906's, that's the one you should start with. (if you don't live in a perfect world) Same longevity issues apply to the 906's as the 915's, non hardened seats. All that being said I think the only way you get out the door for $2K or less is a down and dirty no machine shop dingle ball hone re-ring of the short block using the best core of the ones you have to choose from. No fancy rings that require perfect cylinders either. Cheaper the better. Summit has a rings, bearings and gasket kit for $300. http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/fem-205632m-000/overview/make/dodgeI would then shop for a set of aluminum heads. As was posted earlier, this is where all the power is and to rebuild a set of iron heads PROPERLY you are at or close to the price of several entry level aluminum offerings that will be as good OOTB as ported iron ones. You will also have room to grow when you become bored with 400HP. Kevin
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2016170
02/20/16 05:55 PM
02/20/16 05:55 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,567 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,567
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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At what power levels do stock rocker arms become risky? It's not so much a power level as valve lift and spring pressure that does in the stock rockers altho the 2 can go hand in hand. I'm running an MP509 with OOTB Edelbrock RPM springs on a set of replacement stamped rockers with no problems. Yet... From what I've seen from people that post here, they are good for hyd cams with valve lifts in the low-mid .500's and mid 300's for open spring pressure. If you are considering a hydraulic MP purple cam like a .484 or a .509, you should be good. YMMV. Kevin
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2016508
02/21/16 10:12 AM
02/21/16 10:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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I ran 12.60's with a 77 low compression 440 with stock 906 heads, TM7 intake, .509 DC juice cam, 2" headers in a 3800 lb car with slicks. If it had an auto it would have ET'd better.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2018083
02/23/16 03:15 PM
02/23/16 03:15 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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For your budget, there are a variety of appropriately sized Vortech and Paxton centrifugal superchargers available on ebay. I would take a late 70's smogger 440, clean it up, fresh gaskets, summit k6401 cam with a new timing set. If you're crafty with fabrication, a bracket and pulleys could be setup with junkyard parts for cheap enough. 500hp would not be difficult to attain. Plus good rings, bearings, oil pump and fresh heads.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: JohnRR]
#2018405
02/23/16 10:51 PM
02/23/16 10:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,253 State of Fascism
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,253
State of Fascism
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Thanks for replies. I know there are tons of aftermarket and stock rods, pistons and cranks that are better than a stock 70's 440, my main question is can I re-use my stock rotating assembled and get my hp from machine work, head porting and cam. I don't want to buy parts that are more expensive than reusing my own. A late 70's 440 is going to have pistons almost .150 , or maybe .170 , in the hole , you do not want to zero deck those pistons , it's going to cost more in machining the block that much , then heads and of intake to make it all fit together after hacking that much off the block , than it would to buy a set of 6pk pistons that are only .020 in the hole and have valve reliefs. I'd look for something used that needs to be freshened maybe . You could do it as Von suggests , buy used parts when you can ... but it sounds like you don't want to take a year to do this build , or do you ? Plus it's a crap shoot buying someone else's used up junk ... and there is a lot of that out there .... being passed off as good and ready to go ... X2 or 3.. 440 compression was rated 8.2 the last 5 or 6 years of production. Any pre '70 pistons are an improvement. I did that swap to a '71 440, quick hone job and select fit pistons that were higher in the bore. 6pac's are the way to go
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: 52savoy]
#2018738
02/24/16 01:35 PM
02/24/16 01:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Thanks for replies. I know there are tons of aftermarket and stock rods, pistons and cranks that are better than a stock 70's 440, my main question is can I re-use my stock rotating assembled and get my hp from machine work, head porting and cam. I don't want to buy parts that are more expensive than reusing my own. A late 70's 440 is going to have pistons almost .150 , or maybe .170 , in the hole , you do not want to zero deck those pistons , it's going to cost more in machining the block that much , then heads and of intake to make it all fit together after hacking that much off the block , than it would to buy a set of 6pk pistons that are only .020 in the hole and have valve reliefs. I'd look for something used that needs to be freshened maybe . You could do it as Von suggests , buy used parts when you can ... but it sounds like you don't want to take a year to do this build , or do you ? Plus it's a crap shoot buying someone else's used up junk ... and there is a lot of that out there .... being passed off as good and ready to go ... X2 or 3.. 440 compression was rated 8.2 the last 5 or 6 years of production. Any pre '70 pistons are an improvement. I did that swap to a '71 440, quick hone job and select fit pistons that were higher in the bore. 6pac's are the way to go 71 pistons still weren't low in the bore like the 72+ were. If you had any kind of a ridge in your cylinder on a 72+ 440, I'd be worried about the rings on the new pistons catching on it.
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2018789
02/24/16 03:18 PM
02/24/16 03:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,253 State of Fascism
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,253
State of Fascism
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Thanks for replies. I know there are tons of aftermarket and stock rods, pistons and cranks that are better than a stock 70's 440, my main question is can I re-use my stock rotating assembled and get my hp from machine work, head porting and cam. I don't want to buy parts that are more expensive than reusing my own. A late 70's 440 is going to have pistons almost .150 , or maybe .170 , in the hole , you do not want to zero deck those pistons , it's going to cost more in machining the block that much , then heads and of intake to make it all fit together after hacking that much off the block , than it would to buy a set of 6pk pistons that are only .020 in the hole and have valve reliefs. I'd look for something used that needs to be freshened maybe . You could do it as Von suggests , buy used parts when you can ... but it sounds like you don't want to take a year to do this build , or do you ? Plus it's a crap shoot buying someone else's used up junk ... and there is a lot of that out there .... being passed off as good and ready to go ... X2 or 3.. 440 compression was rated 8.2 the last 5 or 6 years of production. Any pre '70 pistons are an improvement. I did that swap to a '71 440, quick hone job and select fit pistons that were higher in the bore. 6pac's are the way to go 71 pistons still weren't low in the bore like the 72+ were. If you had any kind of a ridge in your cylinder on a 72+ 440, I'd be worried about the rings on the new pistons catching on it. I'm aware of that. I just wanted more. As far as a ridge goes, a ridge reamer used carefully will take of that.
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2018944
02/24/16 06:58 PM
02/24/16 06:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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$400 sounds very reasonable for complete + trans. Were 440s that went into imperials assembled any different than 440s that went into cheaper cars like furys or trucks? What compression ration and heads should I expect from this motor?
Same, barring some hd applications. 8.2 was advertised, real life is 7.8:1. 452 or 346 heads.
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2018960
02/24/16 07:21 PM
02/24/16 07:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,195 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,195
PA.
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Don't look for PRETTY look for CHEAP. Craigslist and Moparts sale ads are your Friend. Can't find it, post a wanted ad. Match your parts carefully. I'm betting I could make 400 HP on a 1000 dollar budget but I do my own work and buy deals whether I need them or not.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#2018972
02/24/16 07:30 PM
02/24/16 07:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 921 Long Island, NY
shocktrp
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 921
Long Island, NY
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Ive been looking for 68 to 70 motors so I can start off with higher compression, but most guys want $1000 for used short blocks.
Ive found a guy with a couple 440's from 73 Imperials. They are complete from pan to pulleys to carb, but they are out of the car. Not sure how to compression test these or if the compression test would do me any good without the engine warmed up. He says they all turn over. He wants $400 for a complete engine plus the tranny. As long as there is no internal water damage, spun bearings or bent valves I think this could be a good deal even if they need a rebuild.
Were 440s that went into imperials assembled any different than 440s that went into cheaper cars like furys or trucks? What compression ration and heads should I expect from this motor? Sounds cheap. There's a guy here selling a 440/727 for $1K. They're out of the car, he claims the motor is "good running," & needs a freeze plug.
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