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Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1990312
01/13/16 11:00 PM
01/13/16 11:00 PM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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Originally Posted By 76D100318
Well, for my goal, i found a calculator as a rough guess and it said i need 605 horse engine to get it down to where i need to be. Its going to get main studs and all that good stuff. Just need to know if its worth spending an extra 300+ on a main girdle setup. Going to use 440 source rods and pistons. It'll be in a 4,000 pound shortbed truck that'll see the strip quite often.
I am in the beginning of my 512 lo-deck build and to be honest the BCR aluminum cap and girdle kit was the second thing that I ordered right after the crank and rod kit, I am looking to get up to 700hp from mine with the same heads but 12.5 comp and a slightly bigger solid roller.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: camdog440] #1990331
01/13/16 11:20 PM
01/13/16 11:20 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Originally Posted By camdog440
Originally Posted By Dragula
We are making right around 700hp at 512 cubes with ours and we see slight cap walk....We run a girdle, and would highly recommend it at +600hp....We limit rpm and keep a close eye on everything.


Do you use stock caps with ARP studs?


Yes...


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1990340
01/13/16 11:47 PM
01/13/16 11:47 PM
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
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For me, changing main caps is too expensive to put in a stock block. If stock main caps won't hold it I want an aftermarket block.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: rickseeman] #1990346
01/14/16 12:03 AM
01/14/16 12:03 AM
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PA.
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Originally Posted By rickseeman
For me, changing main caps is too expensive to put in a stock block. If stock main caps won't hold it I want an aftermarket block.



Bingo. I use to spend as little as possible on my 8 and 9 second builds and when they cracked they cracked. 275 passes was the least amount I ever got running those times. Now with my mega block and Keith Black block I can lean on them a little harder. The amount of money it cost to girdle and line bore an engine is what I refer to as " stupid money". I never had a block leak water, oil, or break any other parts and the cracks were found on Winter maintenance.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67


Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: pittsburghracer] #1990352
01/14/16 12:15 AM
01/14/16 12:15 AM
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Romeo MI
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Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Originally Posted By rickseeman
For me, changing main caps is too expensive to put in a stock block. If stock main caps won't hold it I want an aftermarket block.



Bingo. I use to spend as little as possible on my 8 and 9 second builds and when they cracked they cracked. 275 passes was the least amount I ever got running those times. Now with my mega block and Keith Black block I can lean on them a little harder. The amount of money it cost to girdle and line bore an engine is what I refer to as " stupid money". I never had a block leak water, oil, or break any other parts and the cracks were found on Winter maintenance.


With a girdle I didnt think you had to hone it..
but I have never run a girdle... just honing when
putting caps or studs in
wave

Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Quicksilver440] #1990542
01/14/16 10:45 AM
01/14/16 10:45 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Originally Posted By Quicksilver440
Basically if you need more than studs and aluminum caps...you probably need an aftermarket block.

iagree It can't hurt, but I personally wouldn't bother. I'd use aluminum caps with studs and run it.
I'm going to test the limits soon of a stock block 440 w/ a stock crank and caps, ARP bolts. The motor is in the 680-700 hp range. Once I get it dialed in N/A, I'll turn on the plate.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992377
01/17/16 01:30 AM
01/17/16 01:30 AM
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Burbank California
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Ended up going with a main girdle. Looks like a real nice piece and it should help out for what I'm doing. Thanks for the help everybody!

Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #1992392
01/17/16 01:55 AM
01/17/16 01:55 AM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
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Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'm going to test the limits soon of a stock block 440 w/ a stock crank and caps, ARP bolts. The motor is in the 680-700 hp range. Once I get it dialed in N/A, I'll turn on the plate.


Hey Chip

Stock crank and main caps on a 700 hp piece? Plus nitrous? You, yourself, magged my crank at the 600 hp level and said it looked like cracked crystal. And you have to know that the main caps won't live at that power level with spray. Don't you think a set of aluminum caps should be added? We've all seen pics of those #4 caps.


[image][/image]
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992504
01/17/16 12:01 PM
01/17/16 12:01 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle?
Answer: They wont hurt at any level.
The question should be, how much power can a bb make without a girdle?
Mine made around 1100hp with modified factory caps and a modified factory crank. No girdle. That engine was a 400 based 470 with turbos. There was a challenger with a procharged 383 making about 1200 with a factory block running around back then also. I can't speak for his internals, cause I simply don't know.
If I weren't so cheap, I would have put a girdle on mine. Here's what it takes to hold up to that power.... (yeah it's ghetto)

e-mail sized pics 034.jpg

"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: TRENDZ] #1992517
01/17/16 12:20 PM
01/17/16 12:20 PM
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Salt Lake City
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Short fill and aluminum main caps, but a short fill should be fine for a 600 HP build, should be. That's the problem, some are fine, some go boom, but every one I had showed cap walk.

Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: sgcuda] #1992769
01/17/16 04:29 PM
01/17/16 04:29 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'm going to test the limits soon of a stock block 440 w/ a stock crank and caps, ARP bolts. The motor is in the 680-700 hp range. Once I get it dialed in N/A, I'll turn on the plate.


Hey Chip

Stock crank and main caps on a 700 hp piece? Plus nitrous? You, yourself, magged my crank at the 600 hp level and said it looked like cracked crystal. And you have to know that the main caps won't live at that power level with spray. Don't you think a set of aluminum caps should be added? We've all seen pics of those #4 caps.


The 440 in my brother's Gremlin is still alive. Completed two Drag Weeks, driven on the street regularly, race regularly. 3100 lbs., 8.90-151.

Stock caps, ARP studs, Stock crank, Eagle h-beam rods, Icon dished street pistons. Horsepower doesn't kill the bottom end of stock block engines, detonation does.

03-1976-amc-gremlin-hot-rod-drag-week - Copy.jpg

"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: MoparBilly] #1992788
01/17/16 04:50 PM
01/17/16 04:50 PM
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State of confusion
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Originally Posted By MoparBilly
Originally Posted By sgcuda
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
I'm going to test the limits soon of a stock block 440 w/ a stock crank and caps, ARP bolts. The motor is in the 680-700 hp range. Once I get it dialed in N/A, I'll turn on the plate.


Hey Chip

Stock crank and main caps on a 700 hp piece? Plus nitrous? You, yourself, magged my crank at the 600 hp level and said it looked like cracked crystal. And you have to know that the main caps won't live at that power level with spray. Don't you think a set of aluminum caps should be added? We've all seen pics of those #4 caps.


The 440 in my brother's Gremlin is still alive. Completed two Drag Weeks, driven on the street regularly, race regularly. 3100 lbs., 8.90-151.

Stock caps, ARP studs, Stock crank, Eagle h-beam rods, Icon dished street pistons. Horsepower doesn't kill the bottom end of stock block engines, detonation does.



NUFF SAID............. beer


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992804
01/17/16 05:07 PM
01/17/16 05:07 PM
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New York
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The breakage point is somewhat higher with turbo/supercharged engines than NA or nitrous. Peak cylinder pressure occurs later in the power cycle (more ATDC), and is lower than if developed by traditional high CR NA but lasts longer.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992818
01/17/16 05:21 PM
01/17/16 05:21 PM
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Hot Rod Ridge
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Am I the only one ever to make 1400 HP on a stock 440 block?
It has main studs and a 1/2 fill.😎
I went to aluminum block and heads

Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992820
01/17/16 05:24 PM
01/17/16 05:24 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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Peak cyl pressure can be changed with timing. The problem is with a N/A engine, you are against a wall with timing needs. A N/A engine can only make so much power at MBT... then you're done. Now you want more power, throw some timing at it. It makes more power, less tq. When tq starts dropping, it's because the engine is fighting itself. You're "storing" energy at tdc, and when the crank rotates far enough to use that energy, it does so immediately. Thats where the power comes from.
With a turbo, you can tune for MBT, and if the power isn't what you want- then throw some more boost at it.
Load dependent timing is what makes engines live. My low dollar bottom end made WAAAAAAY more power on pump gas than most "race" builds make on race fuel.
Keep the crank rolling forward!


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: FastmOp] #1992821
01/17/16 05:26 PM
01/17/16 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted By FastmOp
Am I the only one ever to make 1400 HP on a stock 440 block?
It has main studs and a 1/2 fill.😎
I went to aluminum block and heads

PROBABLY.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1992833
01/17/16 05:41 PM
01/17/16 05:41 PM
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At what point does the piston speed (FPS) factor into how much the bottom end is being beat up? IIRC when comparing a 3.75"-stroke turning 7000 RPM vs a 4.25"-stroke turning 6200 RPM, the longer-stroke combination was still creating more piston speed even at that much lower peak RPM.

Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: rickseeman] #1992990
01/17/16 09:37 PM
01/17/16 09:37 PM
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Akron, Ohio
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Originally Posted By rickseeman
For me, changing main caps is too expensive to put in a stock block. If stock main caps won't hold it I want an aftermarket block.


About 10 years ago there was quite a few 440's in my area that were breaking on the track, everyone of them had stock main caps. I noticed alot of guys racing every weekend with aluminum caps so I ran 2 different cars with low deck 400 blocks and aluminum main caps. There's alot of 9 second passes on those motors with zero problems. I'm a firm believer in the 400 block, ARP main studs, and aluminum caps.

Now that I don't race anymore I have a Duster with a 500" low deck pump gas motor, I bought a 440Source girdle and used stock caps. It works great but if I was gonna race I'd have bought aluminum caps. I read a few articles that said you really don't need aftermarket caps with a girdle. My engine builder did need the girdle to do the machine work on the motor.


1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1993013
01/17/16 10:18 PM
01/17/16 10:18 PM
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Australia
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Here is one I managed to break with steel caps and girdle. 528 that was in my 63 Plymouth running a 150 shot of gas, it was going 9.20-9.30 @ 144, I blame myself for not taking out enough timing, you live and learn.
All the parts were saved and put in another block I had but now runs NA with BCR Ali caps no girdle.



1963 Plymouth Max Wedge
1971 Barracuda
Re: At what horsepower do big blocks need a main girdle? [Re: Joey Johnson] #1993130
01/18/16 02:26 AM
01/18/16 02:26 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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Kenny L was doing the aluminum caps in 80s-90s on 400 blocks putting out over 800, I had one of their engines, 499. Get a crank with counter weights on the center main, no cap walk and very smooth from what I hear.

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