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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: justinp61]
#1564883
10/11/14 10:22 PM
10/11/14 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a shame that there is not an easy way to record A/F and RPM and then display in graph form. When you see the info spread out in a graph, it is much more useable. The details and trends become apparent.
The LM-1, though a bit clunky, was the best at this that I have seen. But apparently the newer versions have not worked as well.
For anyone looking to start tuning with a wide band, I would strongly suggest getting a combo with at least A/F and RPM recording ability.
My LM-2 has worked great and LogWorks displays the recordings as a chart. If I knew how to take a screen shot with windows 7 or 8 I'd post a graph.
WHEN the LM-2 works, it has been great. But there have been a lot of issues with it. So many that Innovate took the Tuner page down.
Is the page back up yet? Have they for sure got the problems resolved with the LM-2? If so, then it should be the "go-to" unit for tuning.
Master, again and still
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1564885
10/12/14 12:29 PM
10/12/14 12:29 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
It's a shame that there is not an easy way to record A/F and RPM and then display in graph form. When you see the info spread out in a graph, it is much more useable. The details and trends become apparent.
The LM-1, though a bit clunky, was the best at this that I have seen. But apparently the newer versions have not worked as well.
For anyone looking to start tuning with a wide band, I would strongly suggest getting a combo with at least A/F and RPM recording ability.
Attached is a my last run recorded on my LM-2. Maybe later when I have time I'll try to explain all that's going on but there is a lot! The converter seemed to let go on that run and I lifted, that's why the RPM drops in second gear. I can't imagine wideband tuning by reading a gauge real-time. I'm recording 7 things on my 4 input channels, in addition to the RPM channel.
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1564886
10/12/14 09:10 PM
10/12/14 09:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
|
Quote:
Quote:
It's a shame that there is not an easy way to record A/F and RPM and then display in graph form. When you see the info spread out in a graph, it is much more useable. The details and trends become apparent.
The LM-1, though a bit clunky, was the best at this that I have seen. But apparently the newer versions have not worked as well.
For anyone looking to start tuning with a wide band, I would strongly suggest getting a combo with at least A/F and RPM recording ability.
Attached is a my last run recorded on my LM-2. Maybe later when I have time I'll try to explain all that's going on but there is a lot! The converter seemed to let go on that run and I lifted, that's why the RPM drops in second gear. I can't imagine wideband tuning by reading a gauge real-time. I'm recording 7 things on my 4 input channels, in addition to the RPM channel.
Need a little more smoothing on a couple of those graphs, I think.
Master, again and still
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1564887
10/13/14 12:19 AM
10/13/14 12:19 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
Need a little more smoothing on a couple of those graphs, I think.
AFR is spikey at idle because of leaky headers (soon to be scrapped) and has some spikes around where I lifted off the throttle. AFR is smooth enough where I care (WOT). Other than that it's all useful information. The other traces are ON/OFF, 0-5volt and what may appear to be spikes are control signals I'm monitoring. The obvious voltage spikes can't really be 'smoothed away' without modifying the signal and I'd really like to keep them anyway. The red trace doesn't go to zero because when it's not 'High' it shows the voltage on the coolant temperature sending unit. I can look at that trace and see what the engine temp was at any point. It works so well that I added the transmission temp to the tan signal but it needs to be amplified some to be useful.
After using this Innovate LM-2 I can't imagine trying to do any tuning with an in-dash gauge. Just the problem of the slow response time of the display prevents anything but steady-state readings. With the recording I can see how signals change over short time intervals and correlate them with other events such as transbrake release, shift points, and such.
I also find the OBD2 feature more useful than I thought. It will display DTC's and tell you what they mean (for the generic ones) or clear them for you.
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1564888
10/13/14 10:28 AM
10/13/14 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,993
Benton, IL.
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"After using this Innovate LM-2 I can't imagine trying to do any tuning with an in-dash gauge. Just the problem of the slow response time of the display prevents anything but steady-state readings. With the recording I can see how signals change over short time intervals and correlate them with other events such as transbrake release, shift points, and such."  It may be useful to mention to those that are not familiar with the LM-1 and LM-2 that the black and the pink lines are all that most 1st time tuners are going to have and need. At first glance, that particular log could look a bit confusing. Thanks for the clarification.
Master, again and still
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1564889
10/13/14 11:29 PM
10/13/14 11:29 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
|
Quote:
It may be useful to mention to those that are not familiar with the LM-1 and LM-2 that the black and the pink lines are all that most 1st time tuners are going to have and need. At first glance, that particular log could look a bit confusing.
Thanks for the clarification.
You're right, I should have explained a bit more but was in a hurry to head to Woodburn (as a "Crew Chief" in a runner-up effort).
Pink is AFR, numbers on left in pink for the scale
Black is RPM
Red is transbrake button and coolant temp
Green is transbrake output from delay box
Blue is a throttle function and then an electric shift signal
Tan is another throttle function and a barely detectible and noisy trans temp signal.
The engine idled well in spite of the ugly AFR readings, otherwise I would have fixed it. Very little time was spent at full throttle as something let go barely into second gear, and full throttle.
For comparison, here's the prior (uneventful) run:
This is 1/8th mile, on a 1/4 mile run it hits 6900rpm @ 132+mph
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1564890
11/03/14 12:32 AM
11/03/14 12:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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It has been awhile since I've been tinkering with the tune of the Charger. Mainly my delay stems from the fact that I have a cam swap planned that would render any current tune ineffective. I'm swapping out the Lunati 316/326 for the Mopar 284/528 to gain better low rpm street manners. The MP cam with less overlap should improve things.
Today a buddy came over with his 71 Challenger. He has the same brand of wideband guage as I, the AEM.
Paul wasn't happy with the performance of the car since he did a cam swap. He had been tinkering with the carburetor and timing to try to improve the A/F #s and the power but the car ran too lean at idle, too fat at WOT, power was down and it dieseled upon shutdown even with a 900 idle. He has a 5 speed from American Powertrain and the engine is a 340 based 416 with a Holley Street Avenger 770.
His timing was set to an initial of 10 and a total or 25. He said that he had it set there because any more timing made the dieseling worse. I learned HERE that ignition timing is often blamed for the "run-on" condition but isn't always the case.
I disconnected the throttle cable and backed off the idle speed screw, then ran the engine at 3000 rpms. After 25-30 seconds, I let the engine rev down, then shut it off. NO run on, no spitting, snorting, just silence. I told him that his dieseling was probably due to partially open throttle blades at idle. I bumped the timing to 18 initial, 33 total and backed out the idle mixture screws to get the guage in the 14-15 zone.(Idle in neutral) The car runs great, makes more power than before and does not run on. It still reads rich at cruise so I think it is in the same situation as I am with the Charger: It needs smaller primary jets with a bigger PVCR.
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1916220
09/20/15 06:19 PM
09/20/15 06:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
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OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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UPDATE I have put about 500 miles on the new cam without digging into the carb. It runs great but the A/F guage has been in the 10.9 to 12.0 range at cruise and low 13.0 range at idle. I changed the plugs and checked again. The old plugs smelled of gasoline so I expected to see some slight change. It did seem to clean it up a bit. I pulled out the 3.5 power valve and #83 jets and installed a 6.5 power valve and #82s. Throttle response did improve and I am now able to get the idle in Park and idle in gear numbers in the mid 14s. Cruise is still tricky but it is closer than before. At steady 50 mph in drive, I'm seeing a range of 12.0 to 13.8. The guage readings really move around a lot, maybe that is common for this AEM model? While idling, the guage momentarily reads lean as I hit the throttle, followed by going down to the high 11.0 range. I guess this is tunable with different accelerator pump cams, maybe one that rises faster but ultimately has less overall lift? There was zero detonation when driving today, sunny and mid 90s here. It seems like it is running better than ever. It sure feels fast. 
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Re: Carburetor tuning with a wideband A/F guage.
[Re: jb500]
#1916570
09/21/15 09:30 AM
09/21/15 09:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
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""It runs great but the A/F guage has been in the 10.9 to 12.0 range at cruise and low 13.0 range at idle.""
""At steady 50 mph in drive, I'm seeing a range of 12.0 to 13.8""
Start with your in gear idle A/F. Low 13's are ok, but you might be able to lean it out to 13.8 or so as long as your vacuum numbers stay good. Use your metering screws to get this adjustment (and your internal adjustment are your Idle Feed Restrictors)
Once you have your idle in gear A/F where you want it, then test pulling away from a stop at a normal speed and watch the A/F readings. Dial in your pump cam/squirter to get this in the 13's or so. Just light throttle for now.
After you have the pump cam setup, then take notes of your "lower" cruising speeds again (30,40,50mph). You should be able to get these numbers in the upper 13's to low 14's by using your Idle Air Bleeds. (Your IFR's are also contributing). Each time you change your IAB's, you will need to readjust your Metering Screws.
After you have the IAB's sized correctly, then test your 50-75mph (or what ever "upper" speed you normally cruise). This range is tuned with your Main Jet (and the external adjustment is your Main Air Bleeds).
Once you have all of these set, then test your cruise to hard accel. Try testing at different speeds from 30mph to 75mph and watch for lean or rich spikes. This adjustment is your Power Valve and your Power Valve Channel Restricters. Timing is the PV, and the flow are the PVCR's. If you get a rich spike, then you could lower your PV rating. If you get a lean spike, then you could raise your PV rating. If you can't get either one tuned out with the PV, then test other sizes of your PVCR's.
Once this is all done, then it is time for your WOT testing. With a street car, I like to start at a cruise (maybe 45-55mph) and then go to WOT and write down your A/F spike and your A/F reading at your shift point. Then tune the shift point with your Secondary Jets for approximately 12.5 A/F. Once you have the WOT shift point, then you can tweak the rich/lean spike with your PV rating.
Start at the bottom of the driving range (idle) and tune your way up to WOT (last). If you jump around on tuning your circuits, then you are just going in circles.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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