Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: Tommy D]
#1895842
08/20/15 11:34 AM
08/20/15 11:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,173 CT
GTX MATT
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master
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Posts: 5,173
CT
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Matt, Both engines ran the Comp Cams .557" lift street roller (23-742-9) is the part number. I love seeing the real world numbers for flow on these heads. They confirm what I thought was the case. Does anyone have flow numbers for 906/452 heads, ported with large valves? It would be nice as a comparison. What did you think, they're not flowing much better than stock heads with 2.14/1.81s? The port is significantly bigger though. TBH I've been trying to figure out why my Stealth headed engine doesn't rock like it should. I had a head off a couple of weeks ago and was tempted to bring it to my machinist to flow it. I went through them, lapped the valves (looked good), and changed the springs, but the ports and valve job are just OOTB. Its not hard to get a set of 906s to flow what these heads are flowing. I'd think cleaning up a bowls a little, and big valves, and they'd be there. Mr Porter knows for sure how much is required to get them there. Its certainly very possible your ported iron heads flowed better. I think 906s can safely flow around 280 and not risk cracking from being too thin. Some people get over 300 out of them.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 08/20/15 11:35 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1895843
08/20/15 11:42 AM
08/20/15 11:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,806 Wichita
GY3
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master
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Wichita
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While I have 440source heads and really like them, it still irks me that they over-inflate the flow numbers on their website.
"Intakes flow about 280-290 CFM as cast, with the potential to reach at least 330 CFM or more with porting."
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
9.92 @ 135mph with a 350 shot of nitrous and 93 octane pump. 1.43 60 ft. 3,750 lbs.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1895892
08/20/15 01:26 PM
08/20/15 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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While I see many people posting how "normal" home port jobs on OE iron heads can easily flow 260-270-280+, the fact is, those cases are few and far between. The typical big valve 906/915 type BB head that was home ported or not done by a shop that is well versed in preparing racing heads usually flows in the 240's, or less. It's takes a fairly skilled person with a good understanding of those heads to get them to flow in the 270's +. This is one of the main reasons heads like the RPM's and Stealths so often outperform ported OE heads without any additional work done to them. The home ported "260+ cfm" heads aren't usually as good as the owners think they are. Unless they have been on a flow bench, you'd really just be guessing.
Here are some numbers from some recent heads that came through my shop for freshening/updating. Neither of these sets of heads were home ported, but done by a regular machine shop that wasn't necessarily specializing in head port work. They had the usual big valve install and some amount of associated blending along with some blending of the pushrod pinch area.
915 head, older MP 2.14 intake valve with back cut/ new Ferrea 1.81 exhaust valve with back cut, and I freshened the valve job.
Lift------in/ex .100----70/48 .200---145/99 .300---196/133 .400---227/161 .500---236/181 .600---234/191
906 head, SI stainless 2.14/1.81, no back cut, used valve job (But not many miles on it) with radius as bottom angle on both intake and exhaust.
Lift------in/ex .100----69/48 .200---124/94 .300---180/129 .400---227/158 .500---241/178 .600---245/193
So, it's pretty easy to see how even an OOTB Stealth head should be able to provide a nice improvement in performance over these two sets of reworked OE heads, and these are really fairly typical of what I see. I will add this, for the average home porter, the 346/902/452 heads are much easier to get to flow 250+ cfm, and are also a better bang for your porting $$$ if you're paying to have the heads reworked.
Last edited by fast68plymouth; 08/20/15 02:38 PM.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1895905
08/20/15 01:49 PM
08/20/15 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I figured I'd throw in these numbers too.... 452 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves, done by a well known mopar volume head rebuilder, no porting, no blending. To the best of my recollection, these are the worst flowing big valve heads I've come across. They had a big "bowl hog" type cut done under the valve job that really hurt the flow. IIRC, these flowed less than a completely stock head with the OE valves and valve job.
Lift------in/ex .100----67/52 .200---118/97 .300---169/129 .400---196/141 .500---217/145 .600---222/145
Last edited by fast68plymouth; 08/20/15 02:31 PM.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: AndyF]
#1895925
08/20/15 02:29 PM
08/20/15 02:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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We just ran a 438 inch low deck motor with 75 cc Edelbrock RPM heads and it looked to me like the heads wouldn't flow as much as the "classic" RPM heads. The power numbers were down a bit too. The flow numbers on the Edelbrock website are identical, but it didn't look to me like the 75cc casting would flow as well. Your post is the first set of numbers I've seen though. Andy, were those the 75cc "RPM" heads or the "E STREET" heads? If they were the RPM heads, were the chambers machined or as cast?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: Tommy D]
#1895938
08/20/15 02:44 PM
08/20/15 02:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 411 Harleysville, PA USA
Tommy D
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 411
Harleysville, PA USA
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Matt, Both engines ran the Comp Cams .557" lift street roller (23-742-9) is the part number. I love seeing the real world numbers for flow on these heads. They confirm what I thought was the case. Does anyone have flow numbers for 906/452 heads, ported with large valves? It would be nice as a comparison. Sorry, .575" lift roller, not the .557 i had written above.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1895952
08/20/15 03:04 PM
08/20/15 03:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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As a point of reference, these are the intake flow numbers for a 906 "F" head dated 10 11 8. While not all F heads are great, the best flowing untouched 906's I have tested have been F heads. This particular head had a very well preserved OE valve job and Is tested here with an OE valve and no back cut.
Intake test only- Lift------In .100----62 .200---122 .300---179 .400---214 .500---224 .600---235
On a head like this, once you start to blend the bowl and increase the potential for more air to flow through the port, the short turn will become a limitation and the port will go turbulent, usually between .400-.500 lift, and the flow will drop off unless you start reshaping It.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1896084
08/20/15 06:56 PM
08/20/15 06:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576 Texas
ChevyTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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[quote=fast68plymouth]While I see many people posting how "normal" home port jobs on OE iron heads can easily flow 260-270-280+, the fact is, those cases are few and far between. The typical big valve 906/915 type BB head that was home ported or not done by a shop that is well versed in preparing racing heads usually flows in the 240's, or less. It's takes a fairly skilled person with a good understanding of those heads to get them to flow in the 270's +. This is one of the main reasons heads like the RPM's and Stealths so often outperform ported OE heads without any additional work done to them. The home ported "260+ cfm" heads aren't usually as good as the owners think they are. Unless they have been on a flow bench, you'd really just be guessing. Here are some numbers from some recent heads that came through my shop for freshening/updating. Neither of these sets of heads were home ported, but done by a regular machine shop that wasn't necessarily specializing in head port work. They had the usual big valve install and some amount of associated blending along with some blending of the pushrod pinch area. Very true. The areas of the 906 casting that need work to get the CFM in the 260 + range are kinda hard to get to. Then when you start getting real good number you cut through the short side. The numbers you are posting reflect the numbers that I get on my bench. So far the best 906 that I have tested was 300 CFM. The short side was flat as a board. No idea how they got that lucky.
T & K Performance
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1896154
08/20/15 08:31 PM
08/20/15 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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A few years ago there was a magazine article where someone was offering CNC ported 906 heads. I believe it was Muscle Motors. As I recall they were reported to flow something 312cfm on the intake side. I've had a set of those in the shop, just as delivered from MM with 11/32" stem valves, 2.19 intake and 1.81 exhaust.
Lift------in/ex .100----68/61 .200---145/109 .300---241/145 .400---256/171 .500---284/191 .600---290/204 .700---288/204 .800---290/205
On my bench, while not 312cfm, that's still a very good 906 head, and as big as they looked, it was only like 217cc's as I recall.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1896162
08/20/15 08:41 PM
08/20/15 08:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576 Texas
ChevyTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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A few years ago there was a magazine article where someone was offering CNC ported 906 heads. I believe it was Muscle Motors. As I recall they were reported to flow something 312cfm on the intake side. I've had a set of those in the shop, just as delivered from MM with 11/32" stem valves, 2.19 intake and 1.81 exhaust.
Lift------in/ex .100----68/61 .200---145/109 .300---241/145 .400---256/171 .500---284/191 .600---290/204 .700---288/204 .800---290/205
On my bench, while not 312cfm, that's still a very good 906 head, and as big as they looked, it was only like 217cc's as I recall. I have an old article that explains that some of the well known Mopar ported head that you see for sale are advertised with flow numbers at 32 - 34. Not the 28 that most people are used to. I have had some on the bench and they flow around 275 280 at 28. Crank it up to 32 and they flow around 320.
T & K Performance
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1896472
08/21/15 12:49 PM
08/21/15 12:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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Wonder how long it takes those 300 cfm 906 heads to crack and hydraulic cylinders?
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1896489
08/21/15 01:23 PM
08/21/15 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,539 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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Back to some Stealth numbers... I had a set of Stealths come through the shop that had a season of drag racing use on them. I re-cut the seats, back cut the valves, and blended the exhaust bowls. On the intake side I opened the pushrod pinch to 1.125", blended the bowl and also opened up the bowl area in the roof adjacent to the guide boss, as well as removing most of the guide boss itself.
Lift-----in/ex .100---70/56 .200---143/112 .300---205/145 .400---249/170 .500---279/188 .600---286/201 .700---289/210
The straight wall in the intake ports on these heads are fairly "lumpy". I think if you started out with the level of work the same as the test above, then straightened out the lumps on the straight wall, and took a little off the other three walls, and then smoothed everything up, you'd end up with a port that flowed somewhere around 295-300 cfm.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: 383man]
#1898772
08/25/15 12:37 AM
08/25/15 12:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559 Idaho
LaRoy Engines
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mopar
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So how does that guy from out west get 340+ cfm out of 906's? Very happy flow bench. Ron Wow, I've been missing out on all the fun.......... 2" tube on the exhaust.......28".......... Lift.............Stock 906..........906 Ported .100................66/54................89/60 .200.............131/103............161/129 .300.............189/145............212/185 .400.............222/168............257/216 .500.............234/176............297/234 .600.............237/183............331/253 .700......................................347/264 These 906 heads were on our 500" engine when Comp Cams forgot to turn the water on to the engine. It got so hot that the paint was burning off the cylinder heads and all the exhaust valves seized to and pulled the bronze guides out of the heads. The valves were then pounded out of the guides, the guides knurled on the outside and pounded back into the heads, reamed and the valves stuffed back in. With 15 bent valves and 11-56% leakdown it then made 730 HP on 93 octane pump gas. Oh yeah, the heads never cracked and still don't leak water. Lift......Best OOTB Stealth ever tested.......Fully ported .100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346 With the 2" pipe the Stealth exhaust ports will approach 300 cfm when ported.
Last edited by LaRoy Engines; 08/25/15 01:03 AM.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: LaRoy Engines]
#1898991
08/25/15 12:56 PM
08/25/15 12:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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2" tube on the exhaust.......28"..........
Lift.............Stock 906..........906 Ported
.100................66/54................89/60 .200.............131/103............161/129 .300.............189/145............212/185 .400.............222/168............257/216 .500.............234/176............297/234 .600.............237/183............331/253 .700......................................347/264
Jim L - Are you still using a SF-110 (like myself) and having to throw big correction factors into the results (again, like myself), or have you upgraded flow benches since the last time I asked about your equipment?
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: BradH]
#1898999
08/25/15 01:03 PM
08/25/15 01:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
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When I see BIG starting numbers like this it raises LOTS of questions about flow bench calibrations.
.100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346
I have had a lot of Stealth heads on my bench and when I test I test EVERY port on every head. The most I have ever seen was 267cfm. Start with high numbers end with high numbers and those in the know, know better.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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