Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1899002
08/25/15 01:08 PM
08/25/15 01:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I spoke with my customer the day other on this set of Stealths I have in the shop. From our original conversation I had assumed he was only looking for the "bowl blend" level of porting done to these heads. After our conversation the other day he indicated he was more interested in having them flow solidly in the 280's+, so I went in and opened the pinch to 1.140 and trimmed the guide boss and the port roof adjacent to the boss. This is the same port as the other two tests from earlier(#1).
Lift------intake flow .100----71 .200---146 .300---211 .400---254 .500---277 .600---285 .700---290
Here are some intake port volumes to give an idea of how much work is involved to get from one level to the next. I didn't check the OOTB port volume, but the bowl blend only removes a couple of CC's worth of material.
Recut seats, blend bowls = 210cc Open pinch to 1.140, narrow guide boss = 217cc MCH full CNC ported and valve job = 252cc
On an Edelbrock head, if you do a basic port and polish it'll flow right at about 300cfm, and those ports are usually in the 228-230cc range.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: BradH]
#1899015
08/25/15 01:17 PM
08/25/15 01:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559 Idaho
LaRoy Engines
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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2" tube on the exhaust.......28"..........
Lift.............Stock 906..........906 Ported
.100................66/54................89/60 .200.............131/103............161/129 .300.............189/145............212/185 .400.............222/168............257/216 .500.............234/176............297/234 .600.............237/183............331/253 .700......................................347/264
Jim L - Are you still using a SF-110 (like myself) and having to throw big correction factors into the results (again, like myself), or have you upgraded flow benches since the last time I asked about your equipment? Same oh, same oh. Too bad I'm not wealthy. Just staying alive.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1899039
08/25/15 01:45 PM
08/25/15 01:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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When I see BIG starting numbers like this it raises LOTS of questions about flow bench calibrations.
.100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346
I have had a lot of Stealth heads on my bench and when I test I test EVERY port on every head. The most I have ever seen was 267cfm. Start with high numbers end with high numbers and those in the know, know better. This! ^^^ I look at it this way: I see 9 out of 10 very good head porters have results within 10 cfm of each other. Then I see one guy with results that are nearly double that of the other guys. Who is the outlier? Or, am I to believe that Dwayne and the other head guys here are a bunch of know-nothing hacks? I had Jeff's/MCH Eddy's checked on a local bench and the numbers were within 1 cfm of each other. Trust, but always verify.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: 64Post]
#1899118
08/25/15 03:37 PM
08/25/15 03:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
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When I see BIG starting numbers like this it raises LOTS of questions about flow bench calibrations.
.100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346
I have had a lot of Stealth heads on my bench and when I test I test EVERY port on every head. The most I have ever seen was 267cfm. Start with high numbers end with high numbers and those in the know, know better. This! ^^^ I look at it this way: I see 9 out of 10 very good head porters have results within 10 cfm of each other. Then I see one guy with results that are nearly double that of the other guys. Who is the outlier? Or, am I to believe that Dwayne and the other head guys here are a bunch of know-nothing hacks? I had Jeff's/MCH Eddy's checked on a local bench and the numbers were within 1 cfm of each other. Trust, but always verify. Not all flow benches are the exact same on results, same on the operators sometimes also Changeing the subject for clarification, is the 2 HP per CFM directly related the the head flow results or does it apply directly to the C.I. of the motor the heads are on In other words if the heads flow 200 CFM will they only make 400 HP regardless of the C.I. or does it mean that those heads on a 300 C.I. motor will make 600 HP
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/25/15 03:40 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1899163
08/25/15 04:18 PM
08/25/15 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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Thanks for the softball question.....
Ground Rules: This is a rule of thumb question and will get a rule of thumb answer.
The number is actually a little bit more than 2 hp / cubic inch, but it applies to head flow. The size of the engine determines what rpm this peak power will need. So let's pretend the number is 2.000.
With a 200cfm head on a 400 cubic inch v8, suppose peak power was at 400hp at 4000 rpm. Put that same set of heads on a 300 cubic inch v8 and peak power becomes 400hp at 5333rpm.
Back in the day, I spent Christmas vacation in the ME Library at my University. They had a complete set of Journals of the SAE. What a treasure chest. I read papers by men like Fred Duesenberg with power curves of the same engine with a two valve head and with his four valve head. I read papers on the development of the Dynaflow, which was basically the beginning of torque converters. And from the '50s I read papers from the pioneers of the hot rod industry. The paper that changed my thinking was on flathead Fords. The author had built an engine in three different displacements and posted dyno curves for each configuration. The max power for each size engine was exactly the same. The curves were just arranged from largest engine to smallest engine, along the rpm scale. Displacement only shifted the power curve right or left, it didn't change the amount.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 08/25/15 04:21 PM.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1899177
08/25/15 04:34 PM
08/25/15 04:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,872 Pattison Texas
CSK
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Pattison Texas
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some people use clay for the port entry test, some use nothing,some use a machined radius made for a particular cyl head, the flow #'s can be all over the place. I started using a radius to get more consistent results.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: 64Post]
#1899245
08/25/15 06:31 PM
08/25/15 06:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Balt. Md
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When I see BIG starting numbers like this it raises LOTS of questions about flow bench calibrations.
.100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346
I have had a lot of Stealth heads on my bench and when I test I test EVERY port on every head. The most I have ever seen was 267cfm. Start with high numbers end with high numbers and those in the know, know better. This! ^^^ I look at it this way: I see 9 out of 10 very good head porters have results within 10 cfm of each other. Then I see one guy with results that are nearly double that of the other guys. Who is the outlier? Or, am I to believe that Dwayne and the other head guys here are a bunch of know-nothing hacks? I had Jeff's/MCH Eddy's checked on a local bench and the numbers were within 1 cfm of each other. Trust, but always verify. I see numbers like this and just about unbelievable hp numbers thrown around on a different site that I find hard to believe at all. If I believed some of the numbers thrown around at that site then I would be saying that porter works true magic on every head they touch. And I mean magic thats just not possible. Ron
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: LaRoy Engines]
#1899421
08/25/15 10:55 PM
08/25/15 10:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 506 Utah, USA
1964superstock
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 506
Utah, USA
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So how does that guy from out west get 340+ cfm out of 906's? Very happy flow bench. Ron Wow, I've been missing out on all the fun.......... 2" tube on the exhaust.......28".......... Lift.............Stock 906..........906 Ported .100................66/54................89/60 .200.............131/103............161/129 .300.............189/145............212/185 .400.............222/168............257/216 .500.............234/176............297/234 .600.............237/183............331/253 .700......................................347/264 These 906 heads were on our 500" engine when Comp Cams forgot to turn the water on to the engine. It got so hot that the paint was burning off the cylinder heads and all the exhaust valves seized to and pulled the bronze guides out of the heads. The valves were then pounded out of the guides, the guides knurled on the outside and pounded back into the heads, reamed and the valves stuffed back in. With 15 bent valves and 11-56% leakdown it then made 730 HP on 93 octane pump gas. Oh yeah, the heads never cracked and still don't leak water. Lift......Best OOTB Stealth ever tested.......Fully ported .100...............73...........................73 .200..............151..........................152 .300..............214..........................218 .400..............245..........................267 .500..............262..........................308 .600..............276..........................337 .700..............281..........................346 With the 2" pipe the Stealth exhaust ports will approach 300 cfm when ported. LaRoy Engines, You guys are able to pull some incredible 906 head flow numbers, and dyno horsepower results!!! What head flow numbers and dyno results are you able to get with ported 440 Edelbrock RPM heads on a 440 and larger cubic inch like 470 or 505 ?
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1899573
08/26/15 02:52 AM
08/26/15 02:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448 Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
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Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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I've had a ported set of 906 heads, and a ported set of 915 heads. Lost both after 5 or 6 years of bracket racing and occasional nitrous use. While I believe it's possible to get good numbers out of them...it just doesn't make sense to me to spend all that time or money on 40 year old castings that are prone to crack. Bought a set of Edelbrock RPM's, broke two engines under them in 8 years of hard running, then cleaned them up and sold them to my brother for 75% of new price, and he's got three years on them.
Bought a set of Stealth CNC heads, and bolted them straight on my street 440, love them so far, and like the Eddies, I bet I can recoup 60 to 75% of my investment if I decide to re-sell at some point.
Bottom line, if I'm going to spend 1000-1500 on CNC or hand porting, it only make sense to spend that on a solid, reputable, and repairable casting.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1899771
08/26/15 02:45 PM
08/26/15 02:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
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I Live Here
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Columbia, CT
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I usually want to see track results rather than bench racing. PRC's stuff does what it does, and it proves the numbers he gives. I've seen this first hand having closely looked over his work - and not just his heads. The huge numbers I see elsewhere are always bench and dyno numbers and are never backed up on another peice of equipment. Nothing associated with a car racing in some form where actual output could be quantified without ambiguities. I'm all for teting and bench racing, but unless it's accelerating a mass downa track, it's just conjecture.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: LaRoy Engines]
#1899953
08/26/15 08:19 PM
08/26/15 08:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576 Texas
ChevyTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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2" tube on the exhaust.......28"..........
Lift.............Stock 906..........906 Ported
.100................66/54................89/60 .200.............131/103............161/129 .300.............189/145............212/185 .400.............222/168............257/216 .500.............234/176............297/234 .600.............237/183............331/253 .700......................................347/264
Jim L - Are you still using a SF-110 (like myself) and having to throw big correction factors into the results (again, like myself), or have you upgraded flow benches since the last time I asked about your equipment? Same oh, same oh. Too bad I'm not wealthy. Just staying alive. I would love to get a peek at the 906 heads used for the flow numbers above. They are awesome!
T & K Performance
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1899990
08/26/15 09:38 PM
08/26/15 09:38 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210 robin hood country
deaks
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master
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robin hood country
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I'd like to see them in a car, to see how they stack up at the track.
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200# best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft best 60ft 1.36
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1900699
08/27/15 10:24 PM
08/27/15 10:24 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,546 Seattle, WA
375inStroke
Special needs person
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Special needs person
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Seattle, WA
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I figured I'd throw in these numbers too.... 452 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves, done by a well known mopar volume head rebuilder, no porting, no blending. To the best of my recollection, these are the worst flowing big valve heads I've come across. They had a big "bowl hog" type cut done under the valve job that really hurt the flow. IIRC, these flowed less than a completely stock head with the OE valves and valve job.
Lift------in/ex .100----67/52 .200---118/97 .300---169/129 .400---196/141 .500---217/145 .600---222/145 Bowl hog? Is that like running a 70° stone as far as you can take it? If not porting, how should it be done when installing bigger valves?
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: 375inStroke]
#1900746
08/27/15 11:29 PM
08/27/15 11:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,201 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,201
PA.
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The throat size is a percentage of the valve size. Go to big and you might as well scrap the heads or use them for door stops.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1900825
08/28/15 01:01 AM
08/28/15 01:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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"If not porting, how should it be done when installing bigger valves?"
IMO, if you're planning on installing larger valves in an effort to increase the airflow capabilities of the heads, then some amount of porting should be considered as a mandatory part of the big valve upgrade. In fact, if I had to chose between mild bowl porting or bigger valves, I'd take the bowl porting, especially if the heads in question are 346/902/452 heads.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1900849
08/28/15 01:49 AM
08/28/15 01:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,162 Mesa, Arizona
dart4forte
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I spoke with my customer the day other on this set of Stealths I have in the shop. From our original conversation I had assumed he was only looking for the "bowl blend" level of porting done to these heads. After our conversation the other day he indicated he was more interested in having them flow solidly in the 280's+, so I went in and opened the pinch to 1.140 and trimmed the guide boss and the port roof adjacent to the boss. This is the same port as the other two tests from earlier(#1).
Lift------intake flow .100----71 .200---146 .300---211 .400---254 .500---277 .600---285 .700---290
Here are some intake port volumes to give an idea of how much work is involved to get from one level to the next. I didn't check the OOTB port volume, but the bowl blend only removes a couple of CC's worth of material.
Recut seats, blend bowls = 210cc Open pinch to 1.140, narrow guide boss = 217cc MCH full CNC ported and valve job = 252cc
On an Edelbrock head, if you do a basic port and polish it'll flow right at about 300cfm, and those ports are usually in the 228-230cc range. Inches of vacuum when tested?
“So if it’s on the internet it must be true”
Abe Lincoln
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1901013
08/28/15 12:10 PM
08/28/15 12:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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"Inches of vacuum when tested?"
As stated in my first post, tested at 28" pressure on a 4.375 bore.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 source heads real world numbers
[Re: DusterKid]
#1901037
08/28/15 12:38 PM
08/28/15 12:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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To revisit the volume rebuilder 452's.... As rec'd-
Lift------in/ex .100----67/52 .200---118/97 .300---169/129 .400---196/141 .500---217/145 .600---222/145
Recut seats, back cut valves, blend bowls, open pinch to 1.040-
Lift------in/ex .100----68/60 .200---139/109 .300---201/146 .400---244/171 .500---259/182 .600---255/188 .700---255/190
With the 2.14/1.81 valves installed, the later (346 and newer) heads really respond well to a little blending work.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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